- - -
What Is Beautiful?
Zack de la Rocha Network Forum > the 'burbs > .:: Best and Worst... ::. > .:: "the hot seat" ::.
1, 2, 3, 4, 5
Moremi
An excerpt from a Rolling Stone article on Beyonce:

QUOTE
Beyonce has become a crossover sex symbol a la Halle Berry, a black girl who's not so overwhelmingly Nubian that white people don't appreciate her beauty. She's what Janet Jackson used to be: the tasteful sex symbol who's giving you R&B-flavored pop hits and state-of-the-art videos, tours and movies, too.


user posted image

[ Source ]

I think Beyonce is beautiful but I also think there's a lot of truth in what this writer is saying. Surprised Rolling Stone printed it though.
Casbah
i really think beauty goes beyond all ethnicities, to the point where that doesnt even matter anymore, as cliched and mushy/corny as i must sound saying that
joemomma86
fuck that stuckup bitch.
CUJO
QUOTE (joemomma86 @ Feb 20 2004, 03:10 AM)
fuck that stuckup bitch.

god, i hate her. why does everybody like her?
nerve
QUOTE (Moremi @ Feb 20 2004, 12:24 AM)
Surprised Rolling Stone printed it though.

Rolling Stones writers are $hit...
Underground
show me a white guy who doesn't dig Naomi Campbell. She is very dark.
Moremi
QUOTE (joemomma86 @ Feb 19 2004, 11:10 PM)
fuck that stuckup bitch.

god, I don't get some of you guys...and why you refer to women that way!
Moremi
QUOTE (Underground @ Feb 20 2004, 12:42 AM)
show me a white guy who doesn't dig Naomi Campbell. She is very dark.

I know there are plenty of white guys that find dark skinned black women attractive but it's the image of the light skinned, European looking black woman that's upheld in this society. Naomi isn't what the writer had in mind when he used the word "Nubian". I agree she's pretty but would she be as beautiful if she had a broader nose and lost the weave. You don't see very many black women who fit that description gracing the cover of magazines. That still seems to be a taboo?
rev79
Beyonce is just crazy bangin'..damn she's so sexy. And I've certainly seen no evidence of her being 'stuckup' either..
Metzli
I totally agree and understand you about the european/white look.. she doesn't look black, that's for sure.....
Moremi
I don't know if it's the blonde hair or what, but in some of the recent photos I've seen, I didn't even recognize her ... then I'm like oh wait a minute, that's Beyonce blink.gif
Metzli
she looks (whiter) everytime I see her..laughing.gif
thom (himself)
jackson syndrome?

i can understand why beyonce is found attractive but i personally dont think she is anything special. but that just my own personal taste.

joemomma86
my correction, fuck that slutty looking bitch
Moremi
QUOTE (Rage-Babe @ Feb 20 2004, 04:21 AM)
she looks (whiter) everytime I see her..laughing.gif

I know what you mean laugh.gif Maybe it's not the hair...because she's been blonde in the past but you could still tell she was black. But recently.... blink.gif

dunno.gif
Moremi
QUOTE (thom (himself) @ Feb 20 2004, 06:24 AM)
jackson syndrome?

i can understand why beyonce is found attractive but i personally dont think she is anything special. but that just my own personal taste.

No more falling off your skateboard, huh? smile2.gif
Vìcmælon
QUOTE
a black girl who's not so overwhelmingly Nubian that white people don't appreciate her beauty.


What the f*ck? Non-whites are somehow genetically predisposed to be able to truly appreciate the beauty of some black women???

What a crock of f*cking shit.

Vìc
Moremi
I don't think he meant it like that but I get your point.

A lot of black people (not all) can appreciate the various differences in our race, in skin color, hair texture, facial features, even body types - in our media. But usually, when you see a black woman cross over and considered a sex symbol by whites, more often than not, she looks kind of white.
Sulley
i don't have a problem with beyonce. But then again i don't watch too much tv so i don't know how 'stuckup' some of you guys say she is. I think she is really beautiful and has a great talent.


but she did suck in austin powers 3 tongue.gif
Anarchy in the U.K
QUOTE
my correction, fuck that slutty looking bitch

Do you know how ignorant that comment makes you look? You don't give any reason why you don't like her and how the hell is she slutty? Don't just make dumb comments like that without giving a reason to why you think that.
Also beyonce is very attractive and talented
nerve
Queen Latifah is on "Cover Girl" commercials aswell, i dont know why though, she's not sexy at all
Vespertine
QUOTE (nerve @ Feb 20 2004, 09:54 AM)
Queen Latifah is on "Cover Girl" commercials aswell, i dont know why though, she's not sexy at all

I think she's beautiful unsure.gif
seditious beats
^^^Palabra. I agree.
cosmic
this is an interesting topic. I've heard countless R&B songs that refer to thier women, real or not, as "caramel", "creamy" or other description that entails a "light" complexion(even visually in videos). Hardly ever is the description of a "dark" skin used. So, is this also an issue within the black culture too?
Ascarny
QUOTE (joemomma86 @ Feb 20 2004, 01:39 PM)
fuck that slutty looking bitch

I'd love to!

She's so beautiful smile.gif
Underground
QUOTE
this is an interesting topic. I've heard countless R&B songs that refer to thier women, real or not, as "caramel", "creamy" or other description that entails a "light" complexion(even visually in videos). Hardly ever is the description of a "dark" skin used. So, is this also an issue within the black culture too?

but when do white guys sing about "white" skinned women???
Moremi
QUOTE (nerve @ Feb 20 2004, 01:54 PM)
Queen Latifah is on "Cover Girl" commercials aswell, i dont know why though, she's not sexy at all

I'm not trying to be rude but I'm not sure what your point is. huh.gif Latifah is also light skinned you know. The thing that is really different about her appearance is that she is full figured.

Also, I agree with the others, she is gorgeous and one of my favorite rappers tongue.gif
Moremi
QUOTE (cosmic @ Feb 20 2004, 03:11 PM)
this is an interesting topic.  I've heard countless R&B songs that refer to thier women, real or not,  as "caramel", "creamy" or other description that entails a "light" complexion(even visually in videos).  Hardly ever is the description of a "dark" skin used.  So, is this also an issue within the black culture too?

Yes, and that's been discussed and written about in great length by many African American authors and scholars. It's a fact that black people were made to feel ashamed of their appearance, first through slavery and colonialism then through television, film and the educational system. There's no denying that. Some of us are still stuck in that way of thinking and we're the ones that are going to have to change that. There are rappers that bring up these issues in their music and videos - Mos Def, Kweli, Dead Prez... I don't think blacks are the only ones whose self worth is damaged by living in a society that says blonde hair and blue eyes is the ideal. Asian women have said they've been effected by this and probably other "minorities" as well.
Moremi
QUOTE (Underground @ Feb 20 2004, 04:56 PM)
QUOTE
this is an interesting topic. I've heard countless R&B songs that refer to thier women, real or not, as "caramel", "creamy" or other description that entails a "light" complexion(even visually in videos). Hardly ever is the description of a "dark" skin used. So, is this also an issue within the black culture too?

but when do white guys sing about "white" skinned women???

White guys do sing about white women and there's nothing wrong with that. They might not come out and say white but they use words like "blue eyes", "porcelain skin", "golden hair", which brings to mind images of a white woman. And the women in their videos usually fit that description too.
Moremi
QUOTE (Anarchy in the U.K @ Feb 20 2004, 01:30 PM)
QUOTE
my correction, fuck that slutty looking bitch

Do you know how ignorant that comment makes you look? You don't give any reason why you don't like her and how the hell is she slutty? Don't just make dumb comments like that without giving a reason to why you think that.
Also beyonce is very attractive and talented

Exactly smile.gif
Casbah
im almost embarassed to say shes got a great voice since im not too into most pop music
Vìcmælon
Good point cosmic.

Vìc
Moremi
^ How so?

Why do I feel like people are missing the point? This is not about whether or not Beyonce is beautiful. She obviously is. And it's not about what a few rappers put in their videos or songs. Do you guys realize that blacks have been demonized and compared to animals in the media for years. The closer you were to looking white the better off you were. Our standard of beauty has been greatly influenced by what whites forced upon us. Rather than dealing with the cause, you're dealing with the effect.

Watch the movie Bamboozled by Spike Lee. It goes into some of these issues. And the Public Enemy song "Burn Hollywood Burn", that Zack helped remake for the movie, also very good.

EDIT: There are few books on the RATM reading list that go into these issues also.
Underground
QUOTE (Moremi @ Feb 20 2004, 11:44 PM)
QUOTE (Underground @ Feb 20 2004, 04:56 PM)
QUOTE
this is an interesting topic. I've heard countless R&B songs that refer to thier women, real or not, as "caramel", "creamy" or other description that entails a "light" complexion(even visually in videos). Hardly ever is the description of a "dark" skin used. So, is this also an issue within the black culture too?

but when do white guys sing about "white" skinned women???

White guys do sing about white women and there's nothing wrong with that. They might not come out and say white but they use words like "blue eyes", "porcelain skin", "golden hair", which brings to mind images of a white woman. And the women in their videos usually fit that description too.

it is black women in videos by black guys also
Moremi
QUOTE (Underground @ Feb 21 2004, 01:04 PM)
QUOTE (Moremi @ Feb 20 2004, 11:44 PM)
QUOTE (Underground @ Feb 20 2004, 04:56 PM)
QUOTE
this is an interesting topic. I've heard countless R&B songs that refer to thier women, real or not, as "caramel", "creamy" or other description that entails a "light" complexion(even visually in videos). Hardly ever is the description of a "dark" skin used. So, is this also an issue within the black culture too?

but when do white guys sing about "white" skinned women???

White guys do sing about white women and there's nothing wrong with that. They might not come out and say white but they use words like "blue eyes", "porcelain skin", "golden hair", which brings to mind images of a white woman. And the women in their videos usually fit that description too.

it is black women in videos by black guys also

Yeah, did anyone say they didn't? What are you getting at? unsure.gif
Underground
QUOTE (Moremi @ Feb 21 2004, 05:16 PM)
QUOTE (Underground @ Feb 21 2004, 01:04 PM)
QUOTE (Moremi @ Feb 20 2004, 11:44 PM)
QUOTE (Underground @ Feb 20 2004, 04:56 PM)
QUOTE
this is an interesting topic. I've heard countless R&B songs that refer to thier women, real or not, as "caramel", "creamy" or other description that entails a "light" complexion(even visually in videos). Hardly ever is the description of a "dark" skin used. So, is this also an issue within the black culture too?

but when do white guys sing about "white" skinned women???

White guys do sing about white women and there's nothing wrong with that. They might not come out and say white but they use words like "blue eyes", "porcelain skin", "golden hair", which brings to mind images of a white woman. And the women in their videos usually fit that description too.

it is black women in videos by black guys also

Yeah, did anyone say they didn't? What are you getting at? unsure.gif

you pointed out that white guys have white women in their videos, so that doesn't prove anything given that black guys have black women in theirs
Moremi
QUOTE (Underground @ Feb 21 2004, 01:23 PM)
you pointed out that white guys have white women in their videos, so that doesn't prove anything given that black guys have black women in theirs

No, you asked "when do white guys sing about white women?"...as if somehow they don't. So I listed some examples for you, to show you they do. What I don't get is, what does any of this have to with this discussion? What is your point?
Underground
QUOTE (Moremi @ Feb 21 2004, 05:29 PM)
QUOTE (Underground @ Feb 21 2004, 01:23 PM)
you pointed out that white guys have white women in their videos, so that doesn't prove anything given that black guys have black women in theirs

No, you asked "when do white guys sing about white women?"...as if somehow they don't. So I listed some examples for you, to show you they do. What I don't get is, what does any of this have to with this discussion? What is your point?

it has everything to do with it, the previous discusssion was how black guys don't sing about black women. so i asked the question if white guys do.

it is a perfectly logical and important thing to ask, given the prior discussion
Moremi
QUOTE (Underground @ Feb 21 2004, 01:34 PM)
QUOTE (Moremi @ Feb 21 2004, 05:29 PM)
QUOTE (Underground @ Feb 21 2004, 01:23 PM)
you pointed out that white guys have white women in their videos, so that doesn't prove anything given that black guys have black women in theirs

No, you asked "when do white guys sing about white women?"...as if somehow they don't. So I listed some examples for you, to show you they do. What I don't get is, what does any of this have to with this discussion? What is your point?

it has everything to do with it, the previous discusssion was how black guys don't sing about black women. so i asked the question if white guys do.

it is a perfectly logical and important thing to ask, given the prior discussion

That's not the point cosmic was making. Or at least that was not my understanding of his post. Cosmic was saying that many of the women that are spoken of in rap music or shown in videos are light skinned black women. He was pointing out, that the problem of the media mostly recognizing light skinned black women also exists in the black communitiy. Which is what the writer of that article was getting at - that white people cannot appreciate dark skinned women. He wasn't saying that black men don't sing about black women. I agree with cosmics point but I think it's the effect of living in a society where the standard of beauty is completely opposite of what you see in the mirror.
Underground
QUOTE (Moremi @ Feb 21 2004, 05:43 PM)
QUOTE (Underground @ Feb 21 2004, 01:34 PM)
QUOTE (Moremi @ Feb 21 2004, 05:29 PM)
QUOTE (Underground @ Feb 21 2004, 01:23 PM)
you pointed out that white guys have white women in their videos, so that doesn't prove anything given that black guys have black women in theirs

No, you asked "when do white guys sing about white women?"...as if somehow they don't. So I listed some examples for you, to show you they do. What I don't get is, what does any of this have to with this discussion? What is your point?

it has everything to do with it, the previous discusssion was how black guys don't sing about black women. so i asked the question if white guys do.

it is a perfectly logical and important thing to ask, given the prior discussion

That's not the point cosmic was making. Or at least that was not my understanding of his post. Cosmic was saying that many of the women that are spoken of in rap music or shown in videos are light skinned black women. He was pointing out, that the problem of the media mostly recognizing light skinned black women also exists in the black communitiy. Which is what the writer of that article was getting at - that white people cannot appreciate dark skinned women. He wasn't saying that black men don't sing about black women. I agree with cosmics point but as I already said, there are reasons for that which go back to what the author of that article was saying.

but clearly the important issue to simultaneously address is whether white guys only show or describe particularly white women.

otherwise it is pointless
Moremi
QUOTE (Underground @ Feb 21 2004, 01:57 PM)
but clearly the important issue to simultaneously address is whether white guys only show or describe particularly white women.

otherwise it is pointless

I edited my last post during your reply but anyway...

I think that white women of all shades, hair type and eye color are well represented in media. But black women who are embraced by the mainstream and viewed as beautiful usually look more European. That's the issue.
Moremi
Let me try to explain it another way. This might not be the perfect analogy but I'll try. Take for example how in recent years there have been many organizations and doctors that complained about the problems with self image that are created in young girls through media. The media has a very strong influence on what we believe and think of as beauty. Many girls look to the size 2 super models as role models and believe that's what all men want them to look like. As a result very many women and young girls have eating disorders which has lead several groups to ask for more diversity in the media. This way girls can develop a healthier self image and stop ruining their bodies. What you have to understand is, it's not about being accepted or validated by another group. It's about diversity and reflecting what this world really looks like and not what a few people want it to look like. Through the media, what's mostly being reflected are the interests of powerful white men. In the past, and even now, the media has been used to elevate a European standard of beauty. It's not always as blatant as it used to be but it's still there. Sometimes, it's so obviously deliberate and other times I think people are acting out what they have been taught for so long. But the fact that what we see in the media and what passes as beautiful in this society, doesn't stray very far from European, says a lot about how little we've come in terms of being able to appreciate our differences. Anyway, I think I'm done with this discussion. I feel like I'm speaking another language. Thanks for your feedback. smile.gif
zapatista
I think that's a great analogy... and one most people can relate to. Black women have been pressured to fit this european standard of beauty... more then most. but that even reaches to other minoritys to.. that's why we dye our hair and bla bla bla... meh.. screw that.. I'm not doing that anymore... great topic Moremi
Sara
that's exactly what it is. it's a mechanism of control. the dominant culture in the US, is the anglo-american, and everyone else is a minority, and representing the white on TV more than any other ethinicity reflects that who is in power is the white, they r superiour, they r beautiful and for us to be beautiful we gotta look like them. "us" and "them" are very distinguished.

beyonce is presented as a "hip hop princess" even thu she sings pop really...her music is described as hip hop, coz she's black, but she's she is being presented to us as a white girl...her hair is so blonde, and straight, even when it's curly it looks anglo-american, her skin like u said is light...and this is the way, she is "safe" to be put on TV extensively coz she doesnt threaten the american ideas of beauty. neither does noami campbell for that matter, not with her blue eyes and straight hair. they r safe coz they don't look very black. same goes for asians on TV, they really dont look very "asian" some of them look like they come from mixed ethnic backgrounds. same goes for J Lo.

There is nothing wrong with that, the only problem is, most of the time, this is all we see. it's a problem when people start buying into that crap, that's dangerous, we need to understand our differences and appreciate it, but that cant happen with the way things are today, the dominant culture would be very threatened by this. the media today reflects cultural imperialism and um a lot of hemoginizing u know, trying to blend us all in, under one culture and one value system. there can be no change when we still have the lovely pop stars flooding the TV screens, coz making more money is more important than preserving one's culture.

a while ago, some guy posted here accusing beyonce of trying to be white and he got trashed for it...come to think of it, i kinda agree. can she not see that she's being marketed as a brown "white girl"? i always knew she was being presented as white, it only just hit me, that she could've just said No.

i am so sorry if i repeated material and i am sorry for rambling...i just had to share my view on this smile.gif
Moremi
Thank you for your responses zap and Sarah clap2.gif

Even with her blonde hair in Destiny's Child or in the Hip Hopera - Carmen, that she did with Mos Def, Beyonce still came off to me as a black girl who identified with her people. But there's no doubt that her cross over success is in large part due to her look. Is she presenting herself that way because she's trying to be white or is she doing it because she knows that's what sells? It's not always true that black women who straighten or dye their hair are trying to be white. There are so many black women who are proud of their race and heritage who straighten their hair for a number of reasons that have nothing to do with wanting to be white. For example, Betty Shabazz, the wife of Malcolm X, straightened her hair. There's also many black women who sport natural hair do's like dread locks or fros who dye their hair. The way you wear your hair is not always a reflection of how you feel about your culture. While I don't agree with the blonde hair or weaves, I try to look at a person's situation for what it is. I don't think Beyonce wants to be white but I do think she's doing it because it helps her appeal to a larger audience. As you said, it's about making money. I think it's sad and irresponsible that so many entertainers play into this. I know we all have to make a living and the profession they have chosen for themselves is not very open minded or accepting of people who don't look European. But I think people of color are going to have to be the ones to change this. If we can't be ourselves, even if it means we might sell less records, no one is ever going to accept us for what we are.

I didn't know Naomi Campbell wore blue contacts! That's a damn shame ermm.gif
Metzli
this has been a really interesting topic, i agree with all you, Moremi, Sarah and Zapatista.. I just can't articulate my thoughts right now... so yeah.. But I agree.. completely!!
Moremi
^ I understood where you were coming from. It's a frustrating topic smile.gif
Sara
hey moremi wavenew.gif

let me say that again, when i mentioned beyonce's hair, being blonde and straight, i didnt so much mean that she wants to be white, in the sense that she hates being black, but what i meant was, there is an ideal out there, and that ideal is white girl with straight blonde hair, sure we get the brunettes and red heads, but let's get real, "blondes have more fun". beyonce goes blonde not because she hates being black, but because she's buying into that idealogy, that blonde is beautiful. we all want to look good, but when we go straighten our hair or go blonde, we do it to look good, because we r told that this is looking good, u know what im trying to say? it's not self-hate, it's just, we buy into things, we believe these notions and ideas bout beauty. it's not that she hates being black or she feels a certain way bout her colour or culture, it's that she's been raised watching racist media, it's so subtle and sneaky and sometimes we fall for things almost unaware of it.

sure we all choose to do what we want with our hair, but how much of a choice does one have, when they want to look good so they go blonde, i mean we r being told certain things, we grow up learning certain things that greatly affect our choices, and so the concept of choice is not longer a neutral abstract thing u know?

but i agree, if we dont make the change, who will?

sorry i ramble too much laugh.gif

ps- hey Zap, so ur not gonna go blonde this season? u really suit it smile2.gif
zapatista
QUOTE (Sarah @ Feb 23 2004, 12:28 AM)
ps- hey Zap, so ur not gonna go blonde this season? u really suit it smile2.gif

yea... I'm a hot chica with blond hair.. I know I know.. rolleyes.gif

laugh.gif

I look fine with brown hair to tho! tongue.gif

I have something else to add to this discussion tho... I was talking to a friend of mine who only dates white women.. and I asked him about it.. ya know.. like.. why do you ALWAYS date white women.. ya know.. just wondering.. and he was telling me that.. if he has mixed kids they will have an easier life and all this... how do you think more and more mixed children and mixed people come in to play in this growing shift toward a certain look? unsure.gif
Sara
oh i was just teasing coz u said u wont go blonde again, and well, i highly doubt it laugh.gif


i guess he means his kids will have a better chance in life being half white? i dont personally understand where he's coming from, coz kids of mixed heritege tend to be picked on for being "half-caste" and they tend to be denied from both mother's ethnic group and the father's ethnic group. of course there r exceptions and maybe things will change when he has kids...


aaannnywaay this is off topic scratch.gif
.
Invision Power Board © 2001-2020 Invision Power Services, Inc.