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Anarchy Debate
Zack de la Rocha Network Forum > the 'burbs > .:: Best and Worst... ::.
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Jingle
Hey wavenew.gif

I want to have a debate on the myths and the reality of anarchy.

I am not an anarchist, and i do not beleive that an anarchist would be part of any forum like such. I think anarchy is; Fuck politics, fuck morality, fuck authority, and do what you have to, to supremely reach your goal. I don't beleive we could take out the government with non violence. I beleive the idea of anarchy is not just the destruction of government, i beleive that the point would be to destroy the current society as a whole in order to start things over again. Take things apart and let the latter destroy itself. Not saying it is good or bad.

Let's go i want to debate...productively wavenew.gif

-J
smooth FeEdBak
Im not an anarchist but I think its better than being exploited by a higher authority.

I would love to see man working side by side with each other, alot of people think to have no government is to have no order so naturally people are gonna think that anarchists want total chaos. This is something that anarchists want to change, it sort-of runs hand and hand with socialism, which i prefer over capitalism.

This is my 2 cents feel free to agree or disagree.
Jingle
But the idea of complete equality as a community has never worked. I would love to see it happen, but i beleive it would take hundreds of years of transistion. I think if world wide anarchy occurred that maybe the working side by side could be possible. But the latter effect would kill off many people and leave people to survive and to do so the "community" idea would fit ever so perfectly.

An anarchists supreme goal is to take out the sytem as fast and effectively as possible. What do you think of that!

-J

PS-I want this to get hot man lets get aggressive zmat2.gif wink.gif
ImperialAerosolKid
Well, the old west was an anarchy....
Recor S.
I think people's minds are corrupted at home....when they grow up, ideas are implanted in them and that's how racists and the such become that way....so to live in equality....how would we stop racism altogether?....it seems impossible....and of course with anarchy and the removal of the current corrupt government among other things would come rebels that would run against it....so i don't see there ever being change....though something has to for us to survive in peace....
Rage Man Leca
well lets see i wouldn't call myself a anarchist (im a part of anaarchist group though)

in Montreal there's a little anarcho community, which i stayed at for two weeks. it was a really good experience and time spent.

anarchy isn't all about fuck this, bomb this.....its all about producing for youself. not consuming consuming consuming consuming. people always say "ah it will just be total choas etc" well its not, its all about people comign together helping out etc. anarchist are the smartest people around, and so nice.

when i stayed there everyone helps each other, if i need a tomatoe someone would help me out, then i give them my veggie burger etc. no one is better then you, no one is walkign all over you cause they have more money.

the cool thing about that community is there is no money. NO MONEY. i lived two weeks with no money. didn't have to worry about anything, and if you needed veggie burgers you go steal them. people grew there own vegetables shit like that.

total freedom, it was one of the best experieces of my life!
Lunke
Anarchy is, from my point of view, a great idea but it would never work in large scale
It would only work in smaller communities. Anrachy is a utopia, still there are better
alternatives

And another thing which sortof bothers me, have you ever thought about that
alot of kids which call themselfs anarchist mix it up with socialism or vice versa.
I mean socialism is about as far left as you can be while anarchy is an extrem form of liberalism, far right in other words...
resist
some will agree with anarchy, some will disagree,
some will want something else,

it will be a long time before humans are able to co-exist
together without conflict,
there will be hundreds or thousands of years of death and destruction
before we finally relise that in order to survive we must
forget about race/religion/sex/ etc, and do what is best for
us and the enviroment.

the only problem is, is that everyone has different views and
they always will.
zapatista
Anarchism Explained
Take a look at this site... There is so much to read you might loose your mind... but it's worth it...

My thouhts on Anarchism are this.... the IDEA is very, very good. Who wouldn't want to live in a world without oppression. People working side by side as brother and sisters.. instead of doing everything they can to get ahead. Sounds perfect to me... but I don't think It could ever work in real life.. not on the large scale that is. I mean.. come on.. you see the people out there.. It's nuts.. I don't think 99% of people would be capible of living in a state of Anachy.

Notes on Anarchism - Noam Chomsky <--- Nice Chomsky piece. smile.gif
Radisshu
QUOTE (Jingle @ Sep 16 2003, 11:02 PM)
Hey wavenew.gif

I want to have a debate on the myths and the reality of anarchy.

  I am not an anarchist, and i do not beleive that an anarchist would be part of any forum like such.   I think anarchy is; Fuck politics, fuck morality, fuck authority, and do what you have to, to supremely reach your goal.  I don't beleive we could take out the government with non violence.  I beleive the idea of anarchy is not just the destruction of government, i beleive that the point would be to destroy the current society as a whole in order to start things over again.  Take things apart and let the latter destroy itself.  Not saying it is good or bad.

Let's go i want to debate...productively  wavenew.gif

-J

i'm, err, sorry you feel that way. i'm an anarchist, but I believe that is a good way for society to be... like, seriously ,if you wanna rob a bank, you rob a bank. that's why banks get robbed. if you kill a man, you kill him, that's why people die, (i mean, if they removed penalties for killing people, does that mean people would go rampage and start killing everyone?) DESPITE our "ordered society". people who really ARE going to do something don't care for the laws, therefore they're useless, since they don't hold back the crimes.

problem is, anarchy cannot be implemented without the people BELIEVING IN IT... which is annoying =P

i think the WORD anarchy comes from a greek (?) word meaning "no ruler" ... er.. anarchos, i think, with ARCHOS being ruler and AN being a prefix.. meaning sorta like "no" or "nothing" ... or sumthin.. Blargh
Gunman2112
I have always thought that given the Sheep like tendencies of the vast majority of the "general population" and the fact that through out history the "weak" have always followed the strong, Anarchy would just end up as Feudalism... with lots and lots of little "fiefdoms" spread out all over. One person will always be able to portray her or himself as stronger and get the terrified masses to follow them. We are pack animals after all, look how so many people follow political leaders

Just my take on anarchy… maybe I am just too pessimistic

--Gunman2112
nothing
Anarchy is like Communism. Both sound good on paper, but unfortunately they will never work out in reality. As long as the human race exist there will never be worldwide peace or equality. And besides if Anarchy ruled the world, there would be no decent hospital care and no internet site to debate this in.
rampage
Zapatista honey, I wanted to read your links but they're not working... fucking anarchy!
Actually I believe total control is real anarchy. Kind of like trying to hold the orbiting earth in one place ~ anarchy!
Radisshu
QUOTE (nothing @ Sep 17 2003, 05:09 PM)
Anarchy is like Communism. Both sound good on paper, but unfortunately they will never work out in reality. As long as the human race exist there will never be worldwide peace or equality. And besides if Anarchy ruled the world, there would be no decent hospital care and no internet site to debate this in.

why? anarchy means "no ruler", not "no society"
it's socialism, but without a state to control you...
that doesn't automaticly remove things such as hospitals, schools, etc...
Lunke
QUOTE (Radisshu @ Sep 17 2003, 06:51 PM)
why? anarchy means "no ruler", not "no society"
it's socialism, but without a state to control you...
that doesn't automaticly remove things such as hospitals, schools, etc...

Anarchy is NOT socialism, but without a state. The state is almost everything in
socialism, if remove it you do not get anrchism.
Socialism and anarchy is as diffrent as black and white
zapatista
QUOTE (rampage @ Sep 17 2003, 01:23 PM)
Zapatista honey, I wanted to read your links but they're not working... fucking anarchy!

ohmy.gif What in the tootie fruity is going on here!! They worked for me.. freakin Anarcy.. well.. those links are from http://flag.blackened.net/ a very good and informative site.. tongue.gif
Jingle
QUOTE (Rage Man Leca @ Sep 17 2003, 04:19 AM)
well lets see i wouldn't call myself a anarchist (im a part of anaarchist group though)

in Montreal there's a little anarcho community, which i stayed at for two weeks.  it was a really good experience and time spent.

anarchy isn't all about fuck this, bomb this.....its all about producing for youself. not consuming consuming consuming consuming.  people always say "ah it will just be total choas etc" well its not, its all about people comign together helping out etc.  anarchist are the smartest people around, and so nice. 

when i stayed there everyone helps each other, if i need a tomatoe someone would help me out, then i give them my veggie burger etc.  no one is better then you, no one is walkign all over you cause they have more money.

the cool thing about that community is there is no money.  NO MONEY.  i lived two weeks with no money. didn't have to worry about anything, and if you needed veggie burgers you go steal them.  people grew there own vegetables shit like that.

total freedom, it was one of the best experieces of my life!

There are different things to be taken into consideration here. Sure anarchist communities are great, but there is a difference. These people are living as a society in a world of complete oppisite view points. However as a society their views are similar. I am not disagreeing with you, but different opinions change things. Like you say total freedom is one of the best experiences in life...sure there is no greed no one to look down upon...fantastic. But what about the survival aspects. I am all for a survival style life, living out in the wilderness without technology and everything. That would be amazing, but then your mindset changes. Like the stealing for example, sure when you have nothing that is ok, but when you are living in a society with the oppertunity of getting a job and making money and where "stealing" is "wrong", how can it be justified? You are living outside the law, is that freedom? Is it wrong? I don't know myself...

QUOTE
i'm, err, sorry you feel that way. i'm an anarchist, but I believe that is a good way for society to be... like, seriously ,if you wanna rob a bank, you rob a bank. that's why banks get robbed. if you kill a man, you kill him, that's why people die, (i mean, if they removed penalties for killing people, does that mean people would go rampage and start killing everyone?) DESPITE our "ordered society". people who really ARE going to do something don't care for the laws, therefore they're useless, since they don't hold back the crimes.

problem is, anarchy cannot be implemented without the people BELIEVING IN IT... which is annoying =P

i think the WORD anarchy comes from a greek (?) word meaning "no ruler" ... er.. anarchos, i think, with ARCHOS being ruler and AN being a prefix.. meaning sorta like "no" or "nothing" ... or sumthin.. Blargh


I don't understand what you are trying to prove. And don't pity me. I feel what i feel. I beleive anarchy is what i beleive it is. No matter how violent it may seem through my eyes and how horrible it may seem, I think it is necessary in a corrupt situation.

We are a society in decline. Look back at past cultures and civilizations. We are going down baby. 5000 bucks to shoot naked strippers with paint ball guns? Wow, we are going places now! sad.gif I think we need a violent fuckin revolution where the leaders are hanging from light posts. I think we need the general population to be killed in a blood bath war. People are violence addicts. What can we do to stop that. Hang billboards, yell over a loudspeeker? Or burn buildings, fuck shit up and destroy our current culture as a whole. Is this idea corrupt? Is this idea evil? Or is it watching movies with peoples necks getting sliced, watching pornographic films, shooting paintballs at strippers, watching hours of television, going to work everyday, and coming home for the same thing...I don't want that...can an anarchist society do that? A sub-culture of pacifists and brilliants, maybe that's anarchy, I don't know. Maybe something similar, Ted Kazinski...

-J
Jingle
that was sort of harsh by me... ermm.gif

-J
Jingle
QUOTE (Lunke @ Sep 17 2003, 07:21 AM)
I mean socialism is about as far left as you can be while anarchy is an extrem form of liberalism, far right in other words...

You got it mixed up. Anarchy with socialism are left. Anarchy being further left than socialism. Right would be with the facist dictators and reactionaries. wink.gif smile.gif

-J
TinaRATM
I believe in anarchy conseption and ideology speccialy ideas from Bakunin
But it's beautiful in the theory but hard in the pratice, it's hard a whole country or state be anarchist, I follow my rules, what I think it's right I do. Don't consider myself an anarchist. It;s hard to find REAL anachist now a day. ppl who don't follow rulz and stuff...
Radisshu
Lunke wrote:
" Anarchy is NOT socialism, but without a state. The state is almost everything in
socialism, if remove it you do not get anrchism.
Socialism and anarchy is as diffrent as black and white "


the answer is NO, anarchism IS a type of socialism, and that is where most people misunderstand.
socialism is a BIG tree of political ideologies,
e.g social-democracy, communism (which can be split to stalinism and lenism, etc..) (which you point to here), and ANARCHISM.

socialism does NOT have to have a state, it simply is anti-capitalism (to put it simple). in fact, other words for anarchism are "liberatian socialism" or "free socialism". anarchy is a socialism WITHOUT a hierarchy, and without a capitalist run society, without society classes such as the working class, middle class, upper class... anarchism as socialism was, in fact, unknown to me until i read at that page, but to label all socialism as communism would almost be to say that all kind of metal is iron. while, of course, all type of iron is metal, as in all communists are socialists, but all socialists are not communists.
Radisshu
QUOTE (Jingle @ Sep 17 2003, 10:55 PM)
that was sort of harsh by me... ermm.gif

-J

i've had worse things said to me.. er.. anyway, for a better idea of anarchy, read this: http://flag.blackened.net/intanark/faq/secA1.html#seca11
the link was posted by zapatista (i think..er..) on an earlier page.. from the anarchistic website Blackened Flag (since one of the symbols of anarchy is a black flag)... it even gave me a better idea of anarchism, even though i already was one.. errr.. huh.gif
Radisshu
QUOTE (zapatista @ Sep 17 2003, 08:08 PM)
QUOTE (rampage @ Sep 17 2003, 01:23 PM)
Zapatista honey, I wanted to read your links but they're not working... fucking anarchy!

ohmy.gif What in the tootie fruity is going on here!! They worked for me.. freakin Anarcy.. well.. those links are from http://flag.blackened.net/ a very good and informative site.. tongue.gif

worked for me. thanks a lot, btw, i've read the whole a1 part, but i'll read the other ones soon enough.
Rage Man Leca
all this can be sumed up in one sentance.

ararchy is democracy without a goverment! easy as that!
Radisshu
QUOTE (Rage Man Leca @ Sep 20 2003, 03:38 AM)
all this can be sumed up in one sentance.

ararchy is democracy without a goverment! easy as that!

yeah, that's indeed true! power to the people!

" bara en massa idioter som säger
demokrati är palamentarism,
när den enda sanna demokraten är anarkist! "
promoe / looptroop

basicly saying that the only true democrat is an anarchist
razna
i had the chance to meet some so called anarchists. i was interested, and they spoke to me as i was one of them... that's true, that group is very helping and friendly created and that brings me in mind the image of a big familly, but i was wondering.... there's no future for them, how do they fight against something that big? an opponing something.... i understood them, and i became to believe they were right in some points.... but it's so hard to believe that, even a satisfatory percent of anarchists could get down a big shit.
resist
honestly ask yourselfs this

will humans ever be able to ALL live in harmony and peace?




Rage Man Leca
QUOTE
will humans ever be able to ALL live in harmony and peace?


who knows, nows not looking so good?

as long as the U.S are being dipshits, Never mad.gif
Jingle
That's why we fuck shit up cool.gif

-J
Rage Man Leca
and your happy about that dunno.gif
Jingle
are you? You've become what the u.s. government may possible call a "vegeterrorist".(alas...my creativiety...kddin tongue.gif ) but seriously.

I don't want to hurt people, i just wanna destroy, "destruction is a form of creation" Shit sucks i am tired of living in a society mad.gif

-J
resist
right its set, comon jingle lets gather what weapons we have and take to the streets, destroy everything..........................and then get arrested laughing.gif ]







w00t.gif
Jingle
Fuck yeah! wink.gif

Cept I don't think i would get arrested. If i did...whatever you know?

The shit is gonna go down pretty soon anyway. smile2.gif

-J
Rage Man Leca
QUOTE (Jingle @ Sep 27 2003, 03:37 AM)
are you? You've become what the u.s. government may possible call a "vegeterrorist".(alas...my creativiety...kddin tongue.gif ) but seriously.

I don't want to hurt people, i just wanna destroy, "destruction is a form of creation" Shit sucks i am tired of living in a society mad.gif

-J

you want anarchy, but you don't want to hurt any people!

well good luck! dunno.gif
Jingle
I said i don't want to . Timothy McVeigh didn't want to kill anybody either. He felt he had to. Not that i am comparing myself to Tim, but wants are not what are important. Needs are. wavenew.gif

-J
rage baby
Anarachy looks good on paper but it would never work in our society. i think that there will always be 1 person or a group of ppl that will have the power or want to have the power to control things. in short ppl r just too fucked up for anarchy to work.
tomorrowsashes
I don't follow the logic of anarchism being far right, or opposite of socialism. Facism, not anarchism, is as far right as you can go. Many anarchists believe anarchism to be the purest form of socialism. Anarcho-syndicalists/libertarian communists/social anarchists/communist anarchists are the majority of anarchists, and they are all basically the same thing. The anarcho-syndicalist flag is black and red. Black for anarchism, and red for socialism. It is entirely un-socialistic to give one person more authority/power than another person, or have them rule another. I agree that anarchy wouldn't work on a large degree, but it's not supposed to. That doesn't mean that you are completely shut out from the world outside of your community, but that you only make decisions along with people you closely associate yourself with, whether they are your neighbors or across the world.

Check out the following sites for info on anarchism:
http://www.infoshop.org/faq/index.html
www.anarchyarchives.org
www.akpress.org
www.infoshop.org

The link to the Berkman essay "What is Communist Anarchism" found on the RATM reading list is actually what turned me on to anarchism.
Liberty0x
See I like the concept of Anarchy alot, Ive always been a saporter of it. BUT as rage baby said, it is a good idea on paper but it would never work. Ive got a few good places for Anarchy info. i just have too find my old bookmarks and ill post them (some of them are really really big sites)
smooth FeEdBak
Well i dont think any riots or war against the government will be affective unless you can get more diverse, the usual anarchist is a young white teen. I would suggest getting more black into it b/c the mentality most blacks are nothing but bling bling, girls and cars, and that pisses me off. I would work on building a following then prepare a strike. But ill post more about this later.
rage baby
QUOTE (soulbrother @ Oct 3 2003, 07:33 PM)
the mentality most blacks are nothing but bling bling, girls and cars, and that pisses me off.

huh.gif

nonono.gif


thats the PERCEIVED mentality that most blacks have. its thoughts like that, that continue to prevent us from continuing to move forward. uncle sam just wants u to think that.
smooth FeEdBak
No I talk to my friends all the time and they have the anger for a riot but they have the slave mentality of it would do no good. Mainstream rappers who stuff down are throats the crap these so called riches doesnt help either. And we havent moved forward that much, what are you refering too when you say that?
codyscarff
Anarchy would be a great way to live but....... before you change the economic (from cap to anarchy) structure you would have to change the hearts of the people. People would have to take their eyes of material possesions and not focus on living for themselfs but livng as a communtiy that works together to provide food and basic living needs. As soon as the people stop living from themselfs and become orientated towards everyone helping everyone, it is then we can start forming plans to win the revolution. ANARCHY WOULD BE GREAT IF PEOPLE WERENT SO GREEDY
tomorrowsashes
Everybody says that anarchy wouldn't work because people are just mean at heart. I believe that many people are that way now because of the oppression of government. The truth is, nobody on these forums has ever experienced life outside of the constraints of government. "Primitive" tribes of Native Americans and Africans often had systems that closely resembled anarchism, and they were generally happy. I think it at least deserves a chance.
Radisshu
QUOTE (resist @ Sep 26 2003, 10:21 PM)
honestly ask yourselfs this

will humans ever be able to ALL live in harmony and peace?

maybe, maybe not, but i'll continue fighting for what I believe in.. because i think it's right.. er.. how do i know it's right?.. erm.. oh well..
Radisshu
besides, revolution is pointless if the majority of the people don't believe in it.
slamdizunk
I just wanna know wheres the communism at? In communism isnt the government eventually suppose to fade away? The communisms that everyone always thinks of are not true communisms, because in true communisms the gov't. is eventually suppose to just fade away, and that has never happened before.

THINK ABOUT IT
Jingle
QUOTE (slamdizunk @ Oct 7 2003, 01:25 AM)
THINK ABOUT IT

rolleyes.gif

-J
slamdizunk
thanks J
Guerrilla
QUOTE
all this can be sumed up in one sentance.

ararchy is democracy without a goverment! easy as that!


How can a democracy be sustained, if there is no government?

Comrades, you are living in a dream world, if you believe anarchy can ever work. Anarchy is freedom, for the strong, to rule the weak. We most have some kind of centralized government, for any society to truly function. This is the 21st century, and we are talking about billions of people coexisting, with no preset rules.

Anarchy, has and will always be, a direct doorway to a Dictatorship, or Oligarchy. The only way for us all to truly be equal, and free. Is to work together, to establish a Socialist Democracy. In which we break down the class system, tighten the wage gap between CEO, and entry-level positions. Where free enterprise is allowed, but strickly regulated, so that no exploitation of another human bieng, can ever take place again. A society where each individuals voice is heard, and we no longer elect a legion of corupted officials to choose our nations policies for us, but one where the people decide the laws, policies, and overall nation spending.

I could go on, but I'll keep it relatively short. Point is utopia can be achieved, but not by living under the delusion, that society must devolve into some primitive state to truly be free. I have much more faith in human nature then most americans, and feel that most people perceived as evil, truly are just products of there surroundings, and of this nation education system, but to think that humanity is so pure that we could all co-exist without any overall structure, is insanity.
Radisshu
QUOTE (Guerrilla @ Oct 8 2003, 03:23 AM)
QUOTE
all this can be sumed up in one sentance.

ararchy is democracy without a goverment! easy as that!



Anarchy is freedom, for the strong, to rule the weak.

again, i quote:

"We are convinced that freedom without Socialism is privilege and injustice, and that Socialism without freedom is slavery and brutality.”

COMMUNISM is supposed to be the government handling everything, giving it out equally...
BUT POWER CORRUPTS, the ones with power will want more for themselves and care less and less about equality.
TOTAL freedom, one without any society at all (the common misconception of Anarchy) is as the text says "privilege and injustice", those with more money and those with more power can without anything to stop them take advantage of those weaker or poorer.

ANARCHISM IS A BALANCE, everyone are free to do as they wish, there is no power to corrupt, and is still a non-capitalist system without any classes of society. anarchism is true democracy. there CAN be laws, oh yes there can, but those laws will NOT be controlled by any state, but EVERYONE. the PEOPLE has the power.

Anarchy is anti-hierarchy, anarchism is Freedom AND Justice
.
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