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cosmic
I have always wondered if plants had some sort of pain response...

QUOTE
Do plants feel pain?

This is a tricky one, not so much because we don’t know enough about plants, but more because a proper answer might require a rather philosophical discussion of what pain is, whether all animals feel pain in some way, etc. But as a rough-and-ready answer to the question ‘what is pain’, why don’t we (for the moment) define it as ‘a response to physical stress aimed at reducing that stress’.

I use this definition because although pain means all sorts of things to us, including displeasure and being hurt, it is generally aimed as a ‘warning’ to the body – “this hand is hurting, get it away from the boiling water” is one sort of message pain might be carrying. So at a simple level, pain is aimed at reducing stress.

So – what’s the answer? Well, recent research indicates that plants do have a stress response, which is used when a leaf is cut, for example. They release a chemical called ethylene (also known as ethene, a simple hydrocarbon: C2H4). Ethylene is released as a gas, all over the surface of the plant, and indeed its release is not only triggered by damage, but also decay. So a rotting plant releases lots of ethylene too.

Why is this like a pain response? Because ethylene release controls plant responses to stress, such as extra cell growth. It’s a signal to the plant to take measures to withstand stress. So this is all quite similar to my definition of pain above.

What’s more, the researchers who studied this response had a rather bizarre way of measuring the presence of ethylene – by listening for it. To be precise, they captured the gas in a bell jar and fired lasers at it, which resonated with the molecules and emitted sound at a particular frequency. Upon seeing this, it wasn’t long before scientists and journalists alike were calling these sounds ‘screams’, and suddenly this response seemed a lot more like pain as we know it!

But really, if I’m going to use this simple definition of pain, then anything living feels pain, because all organisms have a repertoire of stress responses. Bacteria have many for example, and their response to heat has been particularly well studied. Can we believe that bacteria feel pain?

So in short, at a very simple level, ignoring the ‘emotions’ of pain, plants have systems and responses that look like pain. But for many, me included, it’s hard to really call that pain, because pain means so much more.

Reference

Interesting...
Sara
QUOTE (cosmic @ Jul 26 2003, 08:35 PM)

Why is this like a pain response? Because ethylene release controls plant responses to stress, such as extra cell growth. It’s a signal to the plant to take measures to withstand stress. So this is all quite similar to my definition of pain above.

What’s more, the researchers who studied this response had a rather bizarre way of measuring the presence of ethylene – by listening for it. To be precise, they captured the gas in a bell jar and fired lasers at it, which resonated with the molecules and emitted sound at a particular frequency. Upon seeing this, it wasn’t long before scientists and journalists alike were calling these sounds ‘screams’, and suddenly this response seemed a lot more like pain as we know it!


cry.gif ermm.gif


this is sad
Sara
ok here's what i think


i think every living thing feels pain, and that's that. the only reason why most people think of plants as almost-non-feeling-pain creatures, is coz most of us got taught that plants have no pain receptors, and have no nervous system. we also got taught that lobsters dont have pain receptors, but now we know it's not true, and that in fact they do have pain receptors and hence feel pain.


plants do feel pain, so do animals, but is that it? we have to eat to survive, animals kill each other to survive, animals kill plants to survive, no matter how philosophical we get about our definitions of humans, we are physiologically ANIMALS and we need to eat things to survive, coz we cannot synthesize our food. we eat plants and we eat other animals.


of course, we make choices, some choose to go vegan, some dont, it doesn't make anyone any more correct or anymore valid than another, coz in the end, we are KILLING something to EAT it.

if we wanna minimize the pain we cause, then we should stop kicking trees, chasing after little ducks, and burning down forests for no particular reason, we should walk on concrete when we can, and should stop polluting earth.

this is what i think. blackhair.gif
Radisshu
i wonder if mosquitos and flies you smash feel pain...
Moremi
So I guess this means meat eaters are more humane than vegetarians laughing.gif since vegetarians eat their "prey" while it's still living rolleyes.gif
Rei
I do not believe plants feel pain. Plants lack of nerves, which are required to have physical feelings. The fact that plants react when you cut off a piece of its body does not necesarily mean it's a manifestation of the plant feeling pain; like animals: when you cut an animal, the animal bleeds; now, the blood isn't the cause of the pain, but the nerves. Its the same with the plants: when you cut a plant, you will get a segregation of its natural fluids, but that of course does not mean the organism is feeling any pain at all.

And no, meat-eaters are NOT more humane that vegetarians, and I'm not just saying this because I'm a vegetarian.

Anyways... just my two cents.

-Ayanami-
cosmic
So because it is alive, but does't not "feel" pain, per se, its ok to kill it? Its still alive and has a right to live, no?

A person that is in a comatose state, paraplegic, or has some nervous disease is easier to humanely kill because they feel no pain?


People can shun this off, but we classify what can be killed and what shouldn't.
Rei
QUOTE
So because it is alive, but does't not "feel" pain, per se, its ok to kill it? Its still alive and has a right to live, no?

A person that is in a comatose state, paraplegic, or has some nervous disease is easier to humanely kill because they feel no pain?


People can shun this off, but we classify what can be killed and what shouldn't.


No no no! I don't mean to say that its alright to kill plants, or that humans suffering from nervous desease feel no pain!

As someone else said, animals have the need to kill in order to survive; now what sounds more humane, to kill other feeling animals, or non-feeling plants? I know it sounds cruel and evil, but that's reality. Now, killing humans with disabilities is simply horrible, and it is our task as capable human beings to take care and nurture those more unfortunate than us.

Also, because a human is in cromatose state does not mean they stop feeling; they simply can't express their feelings.

-Ayanami-
cosmic
QUOTE
Also, because a human is in cromatose state does not mean they stop feeling; they simply can't express their feelings.



Exactly my point about plants. wink.gif
Sara
QUOTE (Rei @ Jul 28 2003, 05:52 PM)
I do not believe plants feel pain. Plants lack of nerves, which are required to have physical feelings. The fact that plants react when you cut off a piece of its body does not necesarily mean it's a manifestation of the plant feeling pain; like animals: when you cut an animal, the animal bleeds; now, the blood isn't the cause of the pain, but the nerves. Its the same with the plants: when you cut a plant, you will get a segregation of its natural fluids, but that of course does not mean the organism is feeling any pain at all.

And no, meat-eaters are NOT more humane that vegetarians, and I'm not just saying this because I'm a vegetarian.

Anyways... just my two cents.


our brains have nerves, but the brain itself feels no pain, so it's not nerves, but more specifically pain receptors.


again, we claim that plants have no pain receptors or nerves, but it's not an absolute fact that plants don't feel pain. if that belief that they dont feel pain makes u feel better eating them, then good for u, we all need to eat.


moreover, is it jsut the idea of pain? or like cosmic said, the idea of killing a living thing is it ok? my belief is, if u kill it to eat, then it's ok, coz that's what other animals do too, and even some plants.

why is it any more human to kill plants to eat them than it is to kill cows to eat them? because of the common HUMAN belief that plants dont feel pain? it's a human belief, made by humans.


how do u define pain?


also, just because we cannot physically see plants hurting, it doesnt mean that they dont.
ImperialAerosolKid
What does this mean for potheads. Does the pot feel the fire??? ohno.gif
rev79
laugh.gif
Moremi
QUOTE (Lpldbloom @ Jul 28 2003, 05:52 PM)
What does this mean for potheads. Does the pot feel the fire??? ohno.gif

No, it's already dead then. It's dried out. laughing.gif
ImperialAerosolKid
QUOTE (ZDLRfan @ Jul 28 2003, 10:11 PM)
QUOTE (Lpldbloom @ Jul 28 2003, 05:52 PM)
What does this mean for potheads. Does the pot feel the fire??? ohno.gif

No, it's already dead then. It's dried out. laughing.gif

phew!!! smile.gif
dreamer997
I don't believe that plants feel pain how we experiance it, because the don't have any nerves.

But they must feel something.

Plants are very sensitive to influences, and they can get diseaces. So they must feel pain but then in a plant kind of way and not in a human kind of way


You understand. Or me make no sense??? unsure.gif
Sara
QUOTE (dreamer997 @ Jul 29 2003, 07:38 PM)
Plants are very sensitive to influences, and they can get diseaces. So they must feel pain but then in a plant kind of way and not in a human kind of way



well we don't know how they feel, so we cannot tell if what they're feeling is human or not, and also, i'm not sure if it matters, i mean, does it make much difference to know that what they're feeling is not the same pain we feel, eventhough it is still pain?
zapatista
All i know is if plants feel...oh no! I slaughter plants every day...by the thousands...maybe millions when i mow my lawn...oh crap..and I went hiking and trampled at least 25 miles of plants.. oh no! and I'm eating carrots right now! ohno.gif
Moremi
QUOTE (dreamer997 @ Jul 29 2003, 02:38 AM)
I don't believe that plants feel pain how we experiance it, because the don't have any nerves.

But they must feel something.

Plants are very sensitive to influences, and they can get diseaces. So they must feel pain but then in a plant kind of way and not in a human kind of way


You understand. Or me make no sense??? unsure.gif

That's exactly how I see it but it's hard to put in words.
ImperialAerosolKid
I still feel bad for my pot. laugh.gif
Moremi
Your pot wants to be smoked. It would feel useless if you didn't do it. wink.gif
ImperialAerosolKid
QUOTE (ZDLRfan @ Jul 29 2003, 02:45 PM)
Your pot wants to be smoked. It would feel useless if you didn't do it. wink.gif

Thank you ZDLRFan. Your support is always welcome. laugh.gif
seditious beats
Hey! book.gif That's pot mf_bookread.gif



this is funny ---> sport_box.gif
zapatista
QUOTE (Lpldbloom @ Jul 29 2003, 02:24 PM)
I still feel bad for my pot. laugh.gif

Well Lpldbloom, I don't think you really have to worry about your pot... I mean if you think about it.. buy the time you get it... it's been dried and stored. So I'm thinking It's dead already. That is of course... assuming your not just pickin stright from the plant.. wink.gif
ImperialAerosolKid
QUOTE (zapatista @ Jul 30 2003, 02:03 PM)
QUOTE (Lpldbloom @ Jul 29 2003, 02:24 PM)
I still feel bad for my pot. laugh.gif

Well Lpldbloom, I don't think you really have to worry about your pot... I mean if you think about it.. buy the time you get it... it's been dried and stored. So I'm thinking It's dead already. That is of course... assuming your not just pickin stright from the plant.. wink.gif

It's like a proper Viking funeral for the poor plant. laugh.gif
Sara
QUOTE (zapatista @ Jul 30 2003, 01:57 AM)
All i know is if plants feel...oh no! I slaughter plants every day...by the thousands...maybe millions when i mow my lawn...oh crap..and I went hiking and trampled at least 25 miles of plants.. oh no! and I'm eating carrots right now! ohno.gif

sad.gif cry.gif
GreenEarthAl

I don't think plants feel pain. I don't think they have the intellectual capacity to mind pain even if they did feel it. Plants do have some sensory perception but I think it's alright to eat them.

I've been a vegitarian 9.5 years and don't think I'll ever go Vegan. I don't eat much dairy because I don't think its a very natural adult human diet.

I have no problem ranking organisms by their sentience.

- If somebody drops a fern and someone else drops a puppy out of a 1st story window and I only have time to catch one I would try to save the puppy.

- If someone dropped two kittens out of a 1st story window and a baby out of another window and I can only catch one I would try to catch the baby.

- If someone dropped a baby out of one window and a full grown comatose man mental vegetable type guy out of another window I would try to save the baby, because, hell, I ain't tryin to catch no full grown man dropped outa no 1st story window.

Anyway, I'm cool with ignoring the screams of my tomato when it's salad time.

cosmic
QUOTE
I don't think plants feel pain. I don't think they have the intellectual capacity to mind pain even if they did feel it. Plants do have some sensory perception but I think it's alright to eat them.


How about people in a coma or no intellectuall capacity? Animals with nervous disorders that don't feel? Are they as "lowly" as a plant?
GreenEarthAl
I don't personally view plants as lowly. Plants are part of the great everything and have tremendous value.

An animal with a neurological disorder that can't feel pain still would have its performance greatly impeeded by removing a part of it, and the resulting bleeding could obviously be life threatening.

A person in a coma has had a life, and by extension, family and/or friends who will be affected by that person's continued well being. Further, a person in a coma even if they've lost sensory perception has a chance for a meaningful recovery.

A plant that gets disected was not about to paint a picture, deliver an oration on social justice or even snuggle up to anyone and start purring. The beauty of a plant lies within it's interaction with the animal kingdom and the atmosphere. The ability to nourish, medicinal properties, oxygen production, aesthetics, etc.

cosmic
Nice Reply. smile.gif


Bleeding has nothing to do with pain. Plants bleed various liquids. There's a fuzzyness in the organisms have the right to live and don't. I believe all organisms have the right to live, plants and animals, but both are vulnerable to be eaten by other organisms.

I've wondered, is being vegetarian/vegan only an urban thing?
GreenEarthAl
For me it's

- an attempt to minimize my intake of Persistent Bioaccumulative Toxins thing.
- a refusal to give bastards like McDonald's corp, YUM brands, ConAgra, ADM, et al. any of my money type thing.
- a hopefulness that mankind can eventually see the wisdom in not changing the Earth's climate thing.

Sara
QUOTE (GreenEarthAl @ Jul 31 2003, 07:31 PM)
A plant that gets disected was not about to paint a picture, deliver an oration on social justice or even snuggle up to anyone and start purring.  The beauty of a plant lies within it's interaction with the animal kingdom and the atmosphere.  The ability to nourish, medicinal properties, oxygen production, aesthetics, etc.

i think this is why most people assume that plants don't feel pain, but this view, of them sunggling up and cuddling is not accurate, i mean shrimps don't snuggle up, neither do fishes, and ur viggetarian, so i'm assuming u dont eat seafood? you don't eat seafood coz they're animals? but they don't snuggle or cuddle, but they feel pain right? so why do plants have to sunggle up to convey a feeling of liveliness? what about mussles? they don't have pain receptors, so they dont feel pain, do u eat them? or because they are classified as animals, it's still a no no?


QUOTE
A plant that gets disected was not about to paint a picture, deliver an oration on social justice


anthropomorphism? u know, when we attribute traits that are unique to humans, to non-humans, it's a quite a limited view of the rest of the world. just because plants are not delivering social justice, it doesn't mean that it's ok to disect it does it?


that thing bout how plants are pretty and provide nourshiment, and all, sure they do, but same goes for animals too, i dont see how this view makes it ok to eat plants but not eat animals.

i also have to point out, that i'm not saying that we shouldn't eat plants, coz we obviously have to eat to survive, but like cosmic pointed out, they are living things too, and i believe that like every living things, they too feel pain.
GreenEarthAl

And I continue to disagree. I do not believe that plants have the capacity to process pain. Even a sophisticated plant like the Venus flytrap, an anomoly of sophistication in the plant world, is without sentience.

My little laundry list of things a plant will never do was just a beginning. As a vegitarian I personally do not eat seafood-- having to do with avoidance of PBTs as well as any morality type thing-- but yes I would place a sea muscle above a plant.

The world of organisms is conveniently divided into the things that have square cells and no thinking, and the things with the amorphic cells, many of which do think. I am able to slap a misquito on my arm without guilt, I don't believe I'm robbing it of much of a range of life.

Humans have a unique sophistication of thought, and I do feel it's time they started using that sophistication of thought to ponder what they are doing to the natural world through their population patterns and their self-interested focus on greedy persuits.

cosmic
QUOTE
Humans have a unique sophistication of thought, and I do feel it's time they started using that sophistication of thought to ponder what they are doing to the natural world through their population patterns and their self-interested focus on greedy persuits.



So is this why, sophisticated thought, we have the physical atributes of a carnivore but choose not to eat meat? Without this thought all humans would be putting their canines to use...and not discriminating between plants and animals, right? What other carnivore chooses to be vegetarian because of moral issues?
Sara
QUOTE (GreenEarthAl @ Aug 1 2003, 03:43 AM)
And I continue to disagree. I do not believe that plants have the capacity to process pain. Even a sophisticated plant like the Venus flytrap, an anomoly of sophistication in the plant world, is without sentience.


see this is precisely what i'm talking bout, anthropomorphism, it's a terrible way to view things, ur viewing them as inferior, even if ur not explicitly saying u r.


QUOTE
My little laundry list of things a plant will never do was just a beginning. As a vegitarian I personally do not eat seafood-- having to do with avoidance of PBTs as well as any morality type thing-- but yes I would place a sea muscle above a plant.



here ur saying that u don't eat seafood, mussles have no pain receptors, so they dont feel pain, but u dont eat it, yet u eat plants coz they dont feel pain wacko.gif
u also say u place mussle above a plant, no, this is not how they are viewd, it's not a hierarchy... unsure.gif



QUOTE
The world of organisms is conveniently divided into the things that have square cells and no thinking, and the things with the amorphic cells, many of which do think. I am able to slap a misquito on my arm without guilt, I don't believe I'm robbing it of much of a range of life.


square cells with no thinking? whaaat does this have to do with pain? u dont have to think to feel pain.


QUOTE
Humans have a unique sophistication of thought, and I do feel it's time they started using that sophistication of thought to ponder what they are doing to the natural world through their population patterns and their self-interested focus on greedy persuits.


it's funny how u talk about really how humans should just drop the attitude, yet u urself speak with the very typical arrogant human attitude of "the world of organisims is conveniently devided into etc etc" "conveniently"? since when this is how it works? the world wasnt made for our convenience....
GreenEarthAl
I have no problem saying explicitly that we have abilities that plants do not have and that I value those abilities more highly than I value what a plant does. To me, Michael Moore writing/directing a film like Bowling for Columbine is more interesting than Ficus sitting there doing its photosynthesis all day long.

Obviously, the agrigate value of plants is greater than the agrigate value of humans. If there were no more plants, all or nearly all life would die in pretty short order. If all humans were gone tomorrow, few other species would mind terribly.

I have yet to comprehend why anyone thinks I should feel remorse for a celery stalk that goes through a food processor. It's relatives aren't going to miss it, I do not believe that it is self aware, it just seems like a big non event to me. Another one just like it will begin to grow soon after. Whereas if you put a 7 year old child through the food processor, their family will be seriously pissed, all of their developing talents will all go for naught, the child will be aware of what's happening to it, etc.

Rage Man Leca
ok ok wowowow........your basing this on one fucking article........
Rage Man Leca
everyone is going crazy........haha told you planets feel pain etc.........its one article........don't take everything so seriously..........its the internet!

mellow.gif
cosmic
Crazy? huh.gif What do you know about plant physiology and the dynamics of plant as a lifeform? If you have some undeniable truth that backs up your post, I'd be interested in hearing it. First, I'm not only going on that article...that's the closest one that I could find on the internet of the experiments I read at school. Second, were mostly talking about science that is cutting edge and practically, maybe mostly, philosophical.
GreenEarthAl
QUOTE (cosmic @ Jul 31 2003, 02:57 PM)

So is this why, sophisticated thought, we have the physical atributes of a carnivore but choose not to eat meat? Without this thought all humans would be putting their canines to use...and not discriminating between plants and animals, right? What other carnivore chooses to be vegetarian because of moral issues?


Humans have the physical characteristics of an omnivore.

Lions can eat antelope with a clear conscious because they don't clearcut a swath the size of France out of the Amazonian jumngles to raise antelopes. Also, I've tried talking to lions about the increasing amounts of PBTs in the food chain (PCBs especially) but they never listen to me. Lions just do whatever the fuck they feel like and damned if you can ever get them to listen to reason.

cosmic
Yea, I was just saying we have attributes of carnivores too.
resist
oh my god something just came to mind.................
lets just say we are not supposed to eat meat or plants
so the plants themselves grow us nuts and fruit to eat
when they fall of the plant its self that way we have something
to eat.












thankyou and goodnight cool.gif

Moremi
So you think we should be fruitarians? huh.gif

No thank you cool.gif
Sara
QUOTE (GreenEarthAl @ Aug 4 2003, 07:32 AM)
I have no problem saying explicitly that we have abilities that plants do not have and that I value those abilities more highly than I value what a plant does.  To me, Michael Moore writing/directing a film like Bowling for Columbine is more interesting than Ficus sitting there doing its photosynthesis all day long. 


is this bout plants being more intersting? no it's bout them feeling pain, is it ok to kill someone coz their boring? no it's not.


QUOTE
I have yet to comprehend why anyone thinks I should feel remorse for a celery stalk that goes through a food processor. It's relatives aren't going to miss it, I do not believe that it is self aware, it just seems like a big non event to me. Another one just like it will begin to grow soon after. Whereas if you put a 7 year old child through the food processor, their family will be seriously pissed, all of their developing talents will all go for naught, the child will be aware of what's happening to it, etc.



is this bout veggies being missed by others? fish isnt missed by it's mother, in fact, the mother fish drops eggs in the sea, and they later become fertilized, and thats that, there's no relationship between the mother and baby fish, yet u dont kill fish.

if i had no family would it justify killing me? i hope not.


it' not bout being missed, it's the notion that all living things feel pain.


ImperialAerosolKid
wow
rampage
No shit! my plants wouldn't stop screaming for water, they made me water them before I finished reading this post ~ they wanted to fill their viens wth the electrodes of their minds so they could be wide awake to hear me read this shit!

Hey~ they're my (shit some are over 24 years old) ficus'


what screaming puppies

i'd of thought someone dropped them out a window or something!
ImperialAerosolKid
tongue.gif
Underground
QUOTE (cosmic @ Jul 31 2003, 04:49 AM)
QUOTE
I don't think plants feel pain. I don't think they have the intellectual capacity to mind pain even if they did feel it. Plants do have some sensory perception but I think it's alright to eat them.


How about people in a coma or no intellectuall capacity? Animals with nervous disorders that don't feel? Are they as "lowly" as a plant?

that logic is prety spurios.
even a person in a comatose means so much more to their family and friends etc than a plant. that is why we would kill a plant over a human.
rampage
I reaally shouldn't make my plants spank me so much for attention

I would never over waterr


but.... damn I've been stressing them too much

and they were cool about it when I had no choice

but the bitch fucck roomates

dont want no down tttttime fucking past thing sucking time;;;; of that yummy earth b lood


those vampires


wonderful gentle roomates

i findd myself needing a bigger place for them

shit

and they never bitch


yea rigiht
Metzli
wacko.gif wacko.gif wacko.gif wacko.gif wacko.gif wacko.gif wacko.gif wacko.gif







shifty.gif
ImperialAerosolKid
Venus Fly Traps feel hunger which is a type of pain.

I try to anesthesize my herb now since cosmic made me feel so guilty with this thread....
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