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Abortion
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zapatista
The House Bans Partial Birth Abortions

Most people have strong views about abortion. I, myself am pro-life as far as myself goes, I could never do it. But I do think It should be an option because, I feel all life is important including the lives of the mothers and If abortions were banned completely they would go back to back alley abortions and THAT we just can't have! I have to admit though I think that partial birth abortions are going to far and I agreed that they should be banned. If your goin to get one you should do it right away, not wait untill a point when the baby could be born and live! But this is just my opinion, what do you think? unsure.gif
Sara
QUOTE
"(The bill) will ban the dangerous and inhumane procedure during in which a physician delivers an unborn child's body until only the head remains inside the womb, punctures the back of the child's skull with a sharp instrument, and sucks the child's brains out before completing delivery of the newly dead infant," said Rep. Steve Chabot, R-Ohio, who introduced the bill in February.



ok this is not right, sucking the brain...when the baby is born, he can feel stuf...


ok im against partial birth abortion, it's unethical really.


agree with u Zapatista, earlier during the pregnancy is one thing, but this...well, it's murder, in a true sense.
cosmic
Yea, partial born abortions are too inhumane. It's unimaginabel how somebody can feel a baby in their body then abort it.


cosmic
xpatriciax
If you're against abortions, don't have one.


oops.gif
Turd Ferguson
NO partial birth abortions. That's just SICK! The baby will feel his/her life being sucked out in such a brutal way......
I myself am pro-choice....to a certain degree. I agree that abortions should only be performed in dire situations, when the mother's life is in danger, rape or incest....what good will it be when your child grows up and wonders who's his/her father? That would be quite psychologically damaging if you tell them that their daddy's a rapist!!!
Sara
QUOTE (kawaii_buttercup @ Mar 29 2003, 01:08 PM)
I myself am pro-choice....to a certain degree. I agree that abortions should only be performed in dire situations, when the mother's life is in danger, rape or incest....what good will it be when your child grows up and wonders who's his/her father? That would be quite psychologically damaging if you tell them that their daddy's a rapist!!!

but it's up for us to decide what the appropriate reason for an abortion is. if a woman simply doesnt wanna have the baby then she has the right to abortion.




im against this parital birth abortion just because in my view, the baby is out of the womb and hence he's a human in the true sense, and his reponsibilities and rights are just like those of u and i, so when the mother chooses to suck his brain out, she's murdering him like she'd murder u or me.
zapatista
QUOTE (xpatriciax @ Mar 28 2003, 09:24 PM)
If you're against abortions, don't have one.


oops.gif

You put a lot of thought into that didn't you!
Radisshu
well, the baby isn't really a PERSON when it's inside the mother anyway. no, seriously, it's not.
Sara
^is that directed at me? coz what i said is


QUOTE
im against this parital birth abortion just because in my view, the baby is out of the womb and hence he's a human in the true sense, and his reponsibilities and rights are just like those of u and i, so when the mother chooses to suck his brain out, she's murdering him like she'd murder u or me.




partial birth abortion means u kill the baby as he's half way out of the womb...
guerrillainmate
QUOTE (Radisshu @ Mar 30 2003, 12:24 AM)
well, the baby isn't really a PERSON when it's inside the mother anyway. no, seriously, it's not.

its a living human being.
It is on the other hand completely vulnerable, unable to talk, unable to communicate effectively.
Soo, yeah, why not just kill it..
In a way its not much different to George W. killing iraqi civilians, they cant help whats going on, but they can get killed for it. blink.gif

anyway, i'm against abortions, and have a thought about abortion that will most proabbly piss every female on the planet off.

I dont think it should be a only a woman's choice to have an abortion or not.., especially if the guy disagrees with the abortion...
I understand that a woman has to have the baby "living inside it"..(notice how i used the word "living"??!)
but it's the guy's baby too.
Radisshu
QUOTE (guerrillainmate @ Mar 30 2003, 10:39 AM)
QUOTE (Radisshu @ Mar 30 2003, 12:24 AM)
well, the baby isn't really a PERSON when it's inside the mother anyway. no, seriously, it's not.

its a living human being.
It is on the other hand completely vulnerable, unable to talk, unable to communicate effectively.
Soo, yeah, why not just kill it..
In a way its not much different to George W. killing iraqi civilians, they cant help whats going on, but they can get killed for it. blink.gif

anyway, i'm against abortions, and have a thought about abortion that will most proabbly piss every female on the planet off.

I dont think it should be a only a woman's choice to have an abortion or not.., especially if the guy disagrees with the abortion...
I understand that a woman has to have the baby "living inside it"..(notice how i used the word "living"??!)
but it's the guy's baby too.

the baby breathes. the baby lives. the baby, however, DOESN'T think.
it's not even complete.

the mother, however, is. although for an abortion, i think the father should at least get some kind of chance to stop it, because.. well, the baby is half of him, somehow.

and i hate those fools going screaming "KILLER, MURDERER!" to the would-be-parents and the doctors.. especially the "parents", since they've probably gone through some pretty rough decisions and experiences to begin with.

..although i think adoption is a better option than abortion, because the kid WILL become a full person, no doubt...
xUNLIKEyou
I'm pro-choice all the way. In my mind, it doesn't matter if the baby is a living being or not. I can't even imagine what would happen if abortions were made illegal.

Our system can't even take care of the children it has in it's care, let alone the millions that would come into their care if abortions were made illegal. And to top it all off, girls would resort to unsafe back alley abortions that could be very harmful and unsanitary.

I care far more about the children that are actually living and breathing than the fetus' being aborted.

Maybe people should spend more time thinking about the children that are starving and homeless, and spend less time thinking about unborn babies.
zapatista
QUOTE (xUNLIKEyou @ Mar 31 2003, 10:03 PM)
I'm pro-choice all the way. In my mind, it doesn't matter if the baby is a living being or not. I can't even imagine what would happen if abortions were made illegal.

Well, if abortions were made illegal we would have backalley abortions with coat hangers like pre-Roe vs. Wade. Because of this I think it should be an option.
But we have to draw the line somewhere! And I my stopping point is partial birth abortion. You labor and deliver just as you would if you were delivering at term.
If you don't stop at partial birth abortion, then I guess people throwing a day old baby in the trash is ok to.

I see your point about being more consernced with kids that are already here though. Children in the foster care system and children being abused have less rights then some would give a fetus. so sad...

Bill Hicks, a great comedian once said that "your not a human untill your in my phonebook" needless to say he's pro-choice!
Radisshu
QUOTE (xUNLIKEyou @ Mar 31 2003, 10:03 PM)
I'm pro-choice all the way. In my mind, it doesn't matter if the baby is a living being or not. I can't even imagine what would happen if abortions were made illegal.

Our system can't even take care of the children it has in it's care, let alone the millions that would come into their care if abortions were made illegal. And to top it all off, girls would resort to unsafe back alley abortions that could be very harmful and unsanitary.

I care far more about the children that are actually living and breathing than the fetus' being aborted.

Maybe people should spend more time thinking about the children that are starving and homeless, and spend less time thinking about unborn babies.

word!
Manifest
Ok for my sociology class we are debting whether it is right or not to do what China did and set a one child limit by sterilizing unemployed single mothers who are a burden to society becuase they have no jobs, reley on walfare, and for the fact that most do not raise their children right. do you guys think its right?




( ^ just a hypothetical situation)
zapatista
^ You could start a whole new topic on this, get some people really fired up! zmat2.gif

smile.gif
Radisshu
QUOTE (Manifest @ Apr 2 2003, 05:37 AM)
Ok for my sociology class we are debting whether it is right or not to do what China did and set a one child limit by sterilizing unemployed single mothers who are a burden to society becuase they have no jobs, reley on walfare, and for the fact that most do not raise their children right. do you guys think its right?




( ^ just a hypothetical situation)

NO, HELL NO
we're no fuckin nazis, who only wanted the "right" people to breed.. are we?
xUNLIKEyou
QUOTE (Manifest @ Apr 1 2003, 10:37 PM)
Ok for my sociology class we are debting whether it is right or not to do what China did and set a one child limit by sterilizing unemployed single mothers who are a burden to society becuase they have no jobs, reley on walfare, and for the fact that most do not raise their children right. do you guys think its right?




( ^ just a hypothetical situation)

Hmm, I've always been on the fence when it comes to China's one child limit.

In one way, it's great because it reduces the population, controls growth, and prevents people with little or no resources from having loads of children, like they usually do. Plus, it makes families put more focus on their children.

But, it's also absolutely not right to sterilize anyone against their will.

I guess, the issue would be, what's more important, controlling the population or our freedom to procreate?
cosmic
QUOTE
I guess, the issue would be, what's more important, controlling the population or our freedom to procreate?



Right, overpopulation is greatly underrated as of now, but it's earth's greatest disaster in the making. The world will simply not be able to support the vast rise in population in the next 50 years. At best, we can slow down procreation and up the level of food production, but that will only dent the impending problem. Managing procreation is a tough dilemma, which many have stuffed under the rug. China has done drastic measures for drastic times, which seems is the only way.


cosmic
Sara
QUOTE (cosmic @ Apr 3 2003, 06:00 PM)
China has done drastic measures for drastic times, which seems is the only way.


that's scary...


ok, it's a woman's fundemental right to bear children, so no one has the right to take that away from her.


also, has it actually worked? women that give birth to a child that happens to be a girl may ,and this has happened before, place the baby in the garbage, or leave it on the street, so yeah, im not sure if that was the original purpose of the plan.
Radisshu
did yak now that every (well, not EVERY, but 90% or sumthin) average family in china wants to have their own car.. but if all average families in china HAD cars, the pollution would be so enourmus that it would ruin, well, a lot of stuff.
Sara
QUOTE (Radisshu @ Apr 4 2003, 09:38 AM)
did yak now that every (well, not EVERY, but 90% or sumthin) average family in china wants to have their own car.. but if all average families in china HAD cars, the pollution would be so enourmus that it would ruin, well, a lot of stuff.

and that relates to this topic because....?
Radisshu
nothing, really. why?
just odd facts. delete if you want to.
*grin*
rage baby
but what about ppl in some other countries. they might be forced into having abortions, even partial birth ones?
Radisshu
...
"other countries"? there aren't just americans in this forum, y'know.
Sara
QUOTE (Radisshu @ Apr 6 2003, 08:56 AM)
nothing, really. why?
just odd facts. delete if you want to.
*grin*

mellow.gif
Radisshu
......................
what?
i *am* odd.
zapatista
Ok, getting back to the subject, kind of. ermm.gif
As far as China goes, they do have a serious over population there. Greater then I think we can appreciate. And cosmic made a good point about China taking extream measures, they have to take extream measures at this point. I can understand the need for a one child limit there, my problem is, that from things I have read. These ideals are being carried out in such a way that they are cruel and inhumane.

Maybe Euthanasia?
Any body have views on that?
Radisshu
hm... well, i say sterilization is wrong... but if they have the "limit" thingie or sumthin, ok, it sounds scary, but if the country is almost exploding with too many people, y'know..
xUNLIKEyou
I think I read somewhere that mothers who have over two babies in China are sometimes forced into having abortions. Sometimes, they're even forced to have partial birth abortions.

It's a scary thing, but desperate situations call for desperate measures.
Sara
QUOTE (zapatista @ Apr 7 2003, 03:38 PM)
Ok, getting back to the subject, kind of. ermm.gif
As far as China goes, they do have a serious over population there. Greater then I think we can appreciate. And cosmic made a good point about China taking extream measures, they have to take extream measures at this point. I can understand the need for a one child limit there, my problem is, that from things I have read. These ideals are being carried out in such a way that they are cruel and inhumane.

Maybe Euthanasia?
Any body have views on that?

i am against sterlisation, because bearing children is a woman's fundemental right.



also, the one child policy doesn't seem to be working very well in china, the socitey is patriarachal and patrilineal (correct me if im wrong) and so having boys is much better than having girls (at least most view this way). what happens when they give birth to a girl? well, some of them (not all, some) put the baby out with the garbage or on the streets.


so im fully against that crap.
Radisshu
... first they need to give women equal rights to men
Manifest
how so?
Radisshu
because then the chance of them dropping female babies in the streets, to get a male one instead, grows smaller.

(GROWS smaller? sounds odd.)
Sara
im not sure that's possible though.


it's a nice thought, but like, these values are part of their culture, and it has been for a very long time, it's hard to try and shift it or change it in such a short period of time. ermm.gif


i also would like to point out, that being a patriarchal patrilineal society doesn't make them misogynists. i think what triggered those incidents of putting baby girls in trash cans is really the one-child policy.

over all a family wants a boy, but never was pressured by limitations, till that Law was passed.
Radisshu
yeah, but now it's there to stay (the law thing)... hopefully women will get the same rights, in at least a while, so no babies will be put in the trash... i mean, then abortion's a LOT better
Manifest
did you know that it's a common thing to sell female children to whore houses and sweat shops
Radisshu
that sucks...
DAMN that's horrible!
ARRRGH!


...

hrm. that's why they need to make more equal..stuff.
and close all the brothels. =P
comeandgetmeFEDS
to be able to say that something (anything at all) doesn't have feeling just like you and I, is to say yourself that your feelings shouldn't have relevance to other peoples' actions. In a world where technology can identify the father, and rape cases, I think that we should treat it as a gift of truth. Meaning that in order to keep irresponsibility out of the abortion ring, rapes and incest should be the only cases in which an abortion be done. If someone knows that they won't be able to financially take care of another human, wear a god damn condom. If the condom breaks, go get the FREE shit at the pregnancy crisis center that will terminate the sperm fertilizing the egg....at any point where there is even a brain stem (which is sometime late in the first trimester) then it should be treated as so...something with the ability to produce thought, just like me or you...
comeandgetmeFEDS
about procreation and the persons right to choose whether or not they want to have kids are the fundamental principles of what philosophers have been trying to finger for all time...whether or not the will of all people is good or evil. Do you want to create more just because you can or do you want to yourself take responsibility in the actions of putting yet another potential threat to everyone here and not do it....no one knows if they are going to carry the next ghandi or hitler...most believe they will raise their kid to do what they think is right....but alot of people have a seemingly demented view of right and wrong...(i say seemingly because no one can possibly prove rightness or wrongness)



on that i say "perception is a misleading tool"
Sara
QUOTE (comeandgetmeFEDS @ Apr 26 2003, 07:20 PM)
to be able to say that something (anything at all) doesn't have feeling just like you and I, is to say yourself that your feelings shouldn't have relevance to other peoples' actions. In a world where technology can identify the father, and rape cases, I think that we should treat it as a gift of truth. Meaning that in order to keep irresponsibility out of the abortion ring, rapes and incest should be the only cases in which an abortion be done. If someone knows that they won't be able to financially take care of another human, wear a god damn condom. If the condom breaks, go get the FREE shit at the pregnancy crisis center that will terminate the sperm fertilizing the egg....at any point where there is even a brain stem (which is sometime late in the first trimester) then it should be treated as so...something with the ability to produce thought, just like me or you...

can u explain a bit more?


im not sure i fully get u, but r u saying that the only case where abortion should be permitted is when it's rape..?


a baby that is produced of rape or consensual sex is a baby...

if ur against abortion....it should apply to all babies



huh.gif
The Wind below
I personally have very strong feelings against abortion. My whole deal is that no one on this planet has the right to decide whether or not another person lives or dies other than the person themselves. That goes for everything, abortion, death penalty, euthenasia, all forms of accepted murder. My friend argued with me a while back that it is ok to abort a fetus because it is at the time nothing, it's an inaniment object, he compared it to a blade of grass. I said that the blade of grass doesn't have the potential to become a human being and that alone is reason enough to not abort a fetus. I don't know if that is the universal argument for all pro choice people out there, but he did a good job of making it seem like it is. No body, no one at all can say that a baby/fetus should be aborted, not even the mother that has it. That is not her decision, it is not her life, it is that baby's life. I agree that back alley abortions would not be good and would happen, but I think abortion is arrogant and barbaric in our modern society where we are "civil".
cosmic
Wind Below, does this apply to anything living or just humans?


cosmic
The Wind below
for me it's just humans, I'm not a vegetarian. But, thats not a universal code, so it can apply to animals, it doesn't for me.
annakist
QUOTE (kawaii_buttercup @ Mar 29 2003, 12:08 AM)
NO partial birth abortions. That's just SICK! The baby will feel his/her life being sucked out in such a brutal way......
I myself am pro-choice....to a certain degree. I agree that abortions should only be performed in dire situations, when the mother's life is in danger, rape or incest....what good will it be when your child grows up and wonders who's his/her father? That would be quite psychologically damaging if you tell them that their daddy's a rapist!!!

I couldnt agree more......partial birth i havent even heard of it ...thats awful!!!!!...........my feelings are that there are many unwanted unloved children in this world ....too many of them and in many cases this is a result of carelessness on the part of the people who had unprotected sex in the first place, however not all people who find themselves pregnant are careless.........and we all can make mistakes.....if this happens and someone feels they are not ready or dont want children they should terminate the pregnancy as soon as possible.......we should have this freedom and right........and it shouldnt be judged negitively in this case. Abortion is extremely difficult for many people - physically, emotionally and mentally.......if done out of the care of the future of our race and our children it should be accepted ...........i think its religion (of various kinds) that has mainly attached this stigma to abortion....
Zero
QUOTE (guerrillainmate @ Mar 30 2003, 10:39 AM)

anyway, i'm against abortions, and have a thought about abortion that will most proabbly piss every female on the planet off.

I dont think it should be a only a woman's choice to have an abortion or not.., especially if the guy disagrees with the abortion...
I understand that a woman has to have the baby "living inside it"..(notice how i used the word "living"??!)
but it's the guy's baby too.

Let's turn that one on its head for a moment; what about all the legions of silly little girls out there who deliberately get themselves pregnant in order to be given a house and unemployment benefits??

Shouldn't the fathers that have been duped by these girls have an equal say as to whether or not they should be allowed to have a baby for such reasons? I dunno about the US, but it happens here in the UK all the time. Innocent blokes trapped by these lazy little oiks, and then expected to pay for a akid they never see, and never wanted!!

It's very dependant on circumstancee, of course, but I think abortion can be VERY necessary.

Z zmat2.gif
Manifest
QUOTE (Zero @ May 12 2003, 09:44 AM)
Let's turn that one on its head for a moment; what about all the legions of silly little girls out there who deliberately get themselves pregnant in order to be given a house and unemployment benefits??

Shouldn't the fathers that have been duped by these girls have an equal say as to whether or not they should be allowed to have a baby for such reasons? I dunno about the US, but it happens here in the UK all the time. Innocent blokes trapped by these lazy little oiks, and then expected to pay for a akid they never see, and never wanted!!

It's very dependant on circumstancee, of course, but I think abortion can be VERY necessary.

Z zmat2.gif

if a dude is irresponsible enough to end up in that situation he deserves what ever comes his way, of course I do believe he should have a say in the upbringing of the child, and that reasonning about getting "duped" (what a fucking cop out) its not like those guys were forced or tricked into shoving their no-common sense having dicks in a girl, you make them sound like a victim when they actually put themselves in that situation. I mean it's total fucking common sense if you dont want a kid don't have fucking sex, you dumb assholes
Zero
QUOTE (Manifest @ May 12 2003, 10:05 PM)
if a dude is irresponsible enough to end up in that situation he deserves what ever comes his way, of course I do believe he should have a say in the upbringing of the child, and that reasonning about getting "duped" (what a f*cking cop out) its not like those guys were forced or tricked into shoving their no-common sense having dicks in a girl, you make them sound like a victim when they actually put themselves in that situation. I mean it's total f*cking common sense if you dont want a kid don't have f*cking sex, you dumb assholes

I do sincerely hope that last little dig was not directed at me, as I am talking from personal experience here, and would therefore thank you NOT to flame me for what is a VERY valid opinion! I'm in the middle of one such situation, I should know!!

Women have all the resources they need to take full control of their own fertility, thats why the pill was invented, because men cannot be trusted! But still this happens, over and over and over, because it is what these little slags want, someone to leach off of so they never have to get off their fat, lazy arses. And they do it, and they make their kids live in squalor in order to keep it that way.

Everybody has a responsibility to not put themself in this situation, but it is far easier for a woman to lie about it. I sure hope you never end up like that, cos your attitude is, I fear, too childish to cope. I dont want kids, but I still have sex, cos I am not a slut or an idiot or a liar, and I am mature enough to protect myself!!

Any by the way, I am a woman.
sIndustry
well, i'm a "christian" but i also believe in freedom of choice. i might be going against my "religion" but i think abortion is a freedom, and women should have the right to choose.
lovely me
I am pro-choice and believe there should be a limitation to the abortions you can have, I think one time is enough. If you have to have second or third abortion, there's something wrong with you.

Men (sperm donors) having any say whether a woman should abort his baby (or not) is LAUGHABLE! I'll tell you what, when dead beat fathers cease to exist, maybe I will consider a man putting in his two worthless cents.



on a side note: i just rubbed my eye and it was full of make up =/


and for those of you who disagree, for my sake, lets pertend you don't because I wouldn't like to debate this issue on a bb, thanks! (yes, i am lazy)
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