Zack de la Rocha Network Forum _ .:: "the hot seat" ::. _ Plants And "pain"

: cosmic Jul 25 2003, 11:35 PM

I have always wondered if plants had some sort of pain response...

QUOTE
Do plants feel pain?

This is a tricky one, not so much because we don’t know enough about plants, but more because a proper answer might require a rather philosophical discussion of what pain is, whether all animals feel pain in some way, etc. But as a rough-and-ready answer to the question ‘what is pain’, why don’t we (for the moment) define it as ‘a response to physical stress aimed at reducing that stress’.

I use this definition because although pain means all sorts of things to us, including displeasure and being hurt, it is generally aimed as a ‘warning’ to the body – “this hand is hurting, get it away from the boiling water” is one sort of message pain might be carrying. So at a simple level, pain is aimed at reducing stress.

So – what’s the answer? Well, recent research indicates that plants do have a stress response, which is used when a leaf is cut, for example. They release a chemical called ethylene (also known as ethene, a simple hydrocarbon: C2H4). Ethylene is released as a gas, all over the surface of the plant, and indeed its release is not only triggered by damage, but also decay. So a rotting plant releases lots of ethylene too.

Why is this like a pain response? Because ethylene release controls plant responses to stress, such as extra cell growth. It’s a signal to the plant to take measures to withstand stress. So this is all quite similar to my definition of pain above.

What’s more, the researchers who studied this response had a rather bizarre way of measuring the presence of ethylene – by listening for it. To be precise, they captured the gas in a bell jar and fired lasers at it, which resonated with the molecules and emitted sound at a particular frequency. Upon seeing this, it wasn’t long before scientists and journalists alike were calling these sounds ‘screams’, and suddenly this response seemed a lot more like pain as we know it!

But really, if I’m going to use this simple definition of pain, then anything living feels pain, because all organisms have a repertoire of stress responses. Bacteria have many for example, and their response to heat has been particularly well studied. Can we believe that bacteria feel pain?

So in short, at a very simple level, ignoring the ‘emotions’ of pain, plants have systems and responses that look like pain. But for many, me included, it’s hard to really call that pain, because pain means so much more.

http://www.sciencenet.org.uk/database/bio/plants/otherplant/b01052d.html

Interesting...

: Sara Jul 26 2003, 12:05 AM

QUOTE (cosmic @ Jul 26 2003, 08:35 PM)

Why is this like a pain response? Because ethylene release controls plant responses to stress, such as extra cell growth. It’s a signal to the plant to take measures to withstand stress. So this is all quite similar to my definition of pain above.

What’s more, the researchers who studied this response had a rather bizarre way of measuring the presence of ethylene – by listening for it. To be precise, they captured the gas in a bell jar and fired lasers at it, which resonated with the molecules and emitted sound at a particular frequency. Upon seeing this, it wasn’t long before scientists and journalists alike were calling these sounds ‘screams’, and suddenly this response seemed a lot more like pain as we know it!


cry.gif ermm.gif


this is sad

: Sara Jul 26 2003, 12:13 AM

ok here's what i think


i think every living thing feels pain, and that's that. the only reason why most people think of plants as almost-non-feeling-pain creatures, is coz most of us got taught that plants have no pain receptors, and have no nervous system. we also got taught that lobsters dont have pain receptors, but now we know it's not true, and that in fact they do have pain receptors and hence feel pain.


plants do feel pain, so do animals, but is that it? we have to eat to survive, animals kill each other to survive, animals kill plants to survive, no matter how philosophical we get about our definitions of humans, we are physiologically ANIMALS and we need to eat things to survive, coz we cannot synthesize our food. we eat plants and we eat other animals.


of course, we make choices, some choose to go vegan, some dont, it doesn't make anyone any more correct or anymore valid than another, coz in the end, we are KILLING something to EAT it.

if we wanna minimize the pain we cause, then we should stop kicking trees, chasing after little ducks, and burning down forests for no particular reason, we should walk on concrete when we can, and should stop polluting earth.

this is what i think. blackhair.gif

: Radisshu Jul 27 2003, 05:03 PM

i wonder if mosquitos and flies you smash feel pain...

: Moremi Jul 27 2003, 06:09 PM

So I guess this means meat eaters are more humane than vegetarians laughing.gif since vegetarians eat their "prey" while it's still living rolleyes.gif

: Rei Jul 27 2003, 08:52 PM

I do not believe plants feel pain. Plants lack of nerves, which are required to have physical feelings. The fact that plants react when you cut off a piece of its body does not necesarily mean it's a manifestation of the plant feeling pain; like animals: when you cut an animal, the animal bleeds; now, the blood isn't the cause of the pain, but the nerves. Its the same with the plants: when you cut a plant, you will get a segregation of its natural fluids, but that of course does not mean the organism is feeling any pain at all.

And no, meat-eaters are NOT more humane that vegetarians, and I'm not just saying this because I'm a vegetarian.

Anyways... just my two cents.

-Ayanami-

: cosmic Jul 27 2003, 09:00 PM

So because it is alive, but does't not "feel" pain, per se, its ok to kill it? Its still alive and has a right to live, no?

A person that is in a comatose state, paraplegic, or has some nervous disease is easier to humanely kill because they feel no pain?


People can shun this off, but we classify what can be killed and what shouldn't.

: Rei Jul 27 2003, 09:23 PM

QUOTE
So because it is alive, but does't not "feel" pain, per se, its ok to kill it? Its still alive and has a right to live, no?

A person that is in a comatose state, paraplegic, or has some nervous disease is easier to humanely kill because they feel no pain?


People can shun this off, but we classify what can be killed and what shouldn't.


No no no! I don't mean to say that its alright to kill plants, or that humans suffering from nervous desease feel no pain!

As someone else said, animals have the need to kill in order to survive; now what sounds more humane, to kill other feeling animals, or non-feeling plants? I know it sounds cruel and evil, but that's reality. Now, killing humans with disabilities is simply horrible, and it is our task as capable human beings to take care and nurture those more unfortunate than us.

Also, because a human is in cromatose state does not mean they stop feeling; they simply can't express their feelings.

-Ayanami-

: cosmic Jul 27 2003, 09:41 PM

QUOTE
Also, because a human is in cromatose state does not mean they stop feeling; they simply can't express their feelings.



Exactly my point about plants. wink.gif

: Sara Jul 28 2003, 12:07 AM

QUOTE (Rei @ Jul 28 2003, 05:52 PM)
I do not believe plants feel pain. Plants lack of nerves, which are required to have physical feelings. The fact that plants react when you cut off a piece of its body does not necesarily mean it's a manifestation of the plant feeling pain; like animals: when you cut an animal, the animal bleeds; now, the blood isn't the cause of the pain, but the nerves. Its the same with the plants: when you cut a plant, you will get a segregation of its natural fluids, but that of course does not mean the organism is feeling any pain at all.

And no, meat-eaters are NOT more humane that vegetarians, and I'm not just saying this because I'm a vegetarian.

Anyways... just my two cents.


our brains have nerves, but the brain itself feels no pain, so it's not nerves, but more specifically pain receptors.


again, we claim that plants have no pain receptors or nerves, but it's not an absolute fact that plants don't feel pain. if that belief that they dont feel pain makes u feel better eating them, then good for u, we all need to eat.


moreover, is it jsut the idea of pain? or like cosmic said, the idea of killing a living thing is it ok? my belief is, if u kill it to eat, then it's ok, coz that's what other animals do too, and even some plants.

why is it any more human to kill plants to eat them than it is to kill cows to eat them? because of the common HUMAN belief that plants dont feel pain? it's a human belief, made by humans.


how do u define pain?


also, just because we cannot physically see plants hurting, it doesnt mean that they dont.

: ImperialAerosolKid Jul 28 2003, 01:52 PM

What does this mean for potheads. Does the pot feel the fire??? ohno.gif

: rev79 Jul 28 2003, 01:53 PM

laugh.gif

: Moremi Jul 28 2003, 02:11 PM

QUOTE (Lpldbloom @ Jul 28 2003, 05:52 PM)
What does this mean for potheads. Does the pot feel the fire??? ohno.gif

No, it's already dead then. It's dried out. laughing.gif

: ImperialAerosolKid Jul 28 2003, 02:12 PM

QUOTE (ZDLRfan @ Jul 28 2003, 10:11 PM)
QUOTE (Lpldbloom @ Jul 28 2003, 05:52 PM)
What does this mean for potheads. Does the pot feel the fire??? ohno.gif

No, it's already dead then. It's dried out. laughing.gif

phew!!! smile.gif

: dreamer997 Jul 28 2003, 10:38 PM

I don't believe that plants feel pain how we experiance it, because the don't have any nerves.

But they must feel something.

Plants are very sensitive to influences, and they can get diseaces. So they must feel pain but then in a plant kind of way and not in a human kind of way


You understand. Or me make no sense??? unsure.gif

: Sara Jul 29 2003, 01:58 AM

QUOTE (dreamer997 @ Jul 29 2003, 07:38 PM)
Plants are very sensitive to influences, and they can get diseaces. So they must feel pain but then in a plant kind of way and not in a human kind of way



well we don't know how they feel, so we cannot tell if what they're feeling is human or not, and also, i'm not sure if it matters, i mean, does it make much difference to know that what they're feeling is not the same pain we feel, eventhough it is still pain?

: zapatista Jul 29 2003, 04:57 AM

All i know is if plants feel...oh no! I slaughter plants every day...by the thousands...maybe millions when i mow my lawn...oh crap..and I went hiking and trampled at least 25 miles of plants.. oh no! and I'm eating carrots right now! ohno.gif

: Moremi Jul 29 2003, 06:14 AM

QUOTE (dreamer997 @ Jul 29 2003, 02:38 AM)
I don't believe that plants feel pain how we experiance it, because the don't have any nerves.

But they must feel something.

Plants are very sensitive to influences, and they can get diseaces. So they must feel pain but then in a plant kind of way and not in a human kind of way


You understand. Or me make no sense??? unsure.gif

That's exactly how I see it but it's hard to put in words.

: ImperialAerosolKid Jul 29 2003, 06:24 AM

I still feel bad for my pot. laugh.gif

: Moremi Jul 29 2003, 06:45 AM

Your pot wants to be smoked. It would feel useless if you didn't do it. wink.gif

: ImperialAerosolKid Jul 29 2003, 06:48 AM

QUOTE (ZDLRfan @ Jul 29 2003, 02:45 PM)
Your pot wants to be smoked. It would feel useless if you didn't do it. wink.gif

Thank you ZDLRFan. Your support is always welcome. laugh.gif

: seditious beats Jul 29 2003, 03:32 PM

Hey! book.gif That's pot mf_bookread.gif



this is funny ---> sport_box.gif

: zapatista Jul 30 2003, 06:03 AM

QUOTE (Lpldbloom @ Jul 29 2003, 02:24 PM)
I still feel bad for my pot. laugh.gif

Well Lpldbloom, I don't think you really have to worry about your pot... I mean if you think about it.. buy the time you get it... it's been dried and stored. So I'm thinking It's dead already. That is of course... assuming your not just pickin stright from the plant.. wink.gif

: ImperialAerosolKid Jul 30 2003, 06:08 AM

QUOTE (zapatista @ Jul 30 2003, 02:03 PM)
QUOTE (Lpldbloom @ Jul 29 2003, 02:24 PM)
I still feel bad for my pot. laugh.gif

Well Lpldbloom, I don't think you really have to worry about your pot... I mean if you think about it.. buy the time you get it... it's been dried and stored. So I'm thinking It's dead already. That is of course... assuming your not just pickin stright from the plant.. wink.gif

It's like a proper Viking funeral for the poor plant. laugh.gif

: Sara Jul 30 2003, 07:50 PM

QUOTE (zapatista @ Jul 30 2003, 01:57 AM)
All i know is if plants feel...oh no! I slaughter plants every day...by the thousands...maybe millions when i mow my lawn...oh crap..and I went hiking and trampled at least 25 miles of plants.. oh no! and I'm eating carrots right now! ohno.gif

sad.gif cry.gif

: GreenEarthAl Jul 30 2003, 08:20 PM


I don't think plants feel pain. I don't think they have the intellectual capacity to mind pain even if they did feel it. Plants do have some sensory perception but I think it's alright to eat them.

I've been a vegitarian 9.5 years and don't think I'll ever go Vegan. I don't eat much dairy because I don't think its a very natural adult human diet.

I have no problem ranking organisms by their sentience.

- If somebody drops a fern and someone else drops a puppy out of a 1st story window and I only have time to catch one I would try to save the puppy.

- If someone dropped two kittens out of a 1st story window and a baby out of another window and I can only catch one I would try to catch the baby.

- If someone dropped a baby out of one window and a full grown comatose man mental vegetable type guy out of another window I would try to save the baby, because, hell, I ain't tryin to catch no full grown man dropped outa no 1st story window.

Anyway, I'm cool with ignoring the screams of my tomato when it's salad time.


: cosmic Jul 30 2003, 08:49 PM

QUOTE
I don't think plants feel pain. I don't think they have the intellectual capacity to mind pain even if they did feel it. Plants do have some sensory perception but I think it's alright to eat them.


How about people in a coma or no intellectuall capacity? Animals with nervous disorders that don't feel? Are they as "lowly" as a plant?

: GreenEarthAl Jul 30 2003, 10:31 PM

I don't personally view plants as lowly. Plants are part of the great everything and have tremendous value.

An animal with a neurological disorder that can't feel pain still would have its performance greatly impeeded by removing a part of it, and the resulting bleeding could obviously be life threatening.

A person in a coma has had a life, and by extension, family and/or friends who will be affected by that person's continued well being. Further, a person in a coma even if they've lost sensory perception has a chance for a meaningful recovery.

A plant that gets disected was not about to paint a picture, deliver an oration on social justice or even snuggle up to anyone and start purring. The beauty of a plant lies within it's interaction with the animal kingdom and the atmosphere. The ability to nourish, medicinal properties, oxygen production, aesthetics, etc.


: cosmic Jul 30 2003, 10:52 PM

Nice Reply. smile.gif


Bleeding has nothing to do with pain. Plants bleed various liquids. There's a fuzzyness in the organisms have the right to live and don't. I believe all organisms have the right to live, plants and animals, but both are vulnerable to be eaten by other organisms.

I've wondered, is being vegetarian/vegan only an urban thing?

: GreenEarthAl Jul 30 2003, 11:11 PM

For me it's

- an attempt to minimize my intake of Persistent Bioaccumulative Toxins thing.
- a refusal to give bastards like McDonald's corp, YUM brands, ConAgra, ADM, et al. any of my money type thing.
- a hopefulness that mankind can eventually see the wisdom in not changing the Earth's climate thing.


: Sara Jul 31 2003, 03:41 AM

QUOTE (GreenEarthAl @ Jul 31 2003, 07:31 PM)
A plant that gets disected was not about to paint a picture, deliver an oration on social justice or even snuggle up to anyone and start purring.  The beauty of a plant lies within it's interaction with the animal kingdom and the atmosphere.  The ability to nourish, medicinal properties, oxygen production, aesthetics, etc.

i think this is why most people assume that plants don't feel pain, but this view, of them sunggling up and cuddling is not accurate, i mean shrimps don't snuggle up, neither do fishes, and ur viggetarian, so i'm assuming u dont eat seafood? you don't eat seafood coz they're animals? but they don't snuggle or cuddle, but they feel pain right? so why do plants have to sunggle up to convey a feeling of liveliness? what about mussles? they don't have pain receptors, so they dont feel pain, do u eat them? or because they are classified as animals, it's still a no no?


QUOTE
A plant that gets disected was not about to paint a picture, deliver an oration on social justice


anthropomorphism? u know, when we attribute traits that are unique to humans, to non-humans, it's a quite a limited view of the rest of the world. just because plants are not delivering social justice, it doesn't mean that it's ok to disect it does it?


that thing bout how plants are pretty and provide nourshiment, and all, sure they do, but same goes for animals too, i dont see how this view makes it ok to eat plants but not eat animals.

i also have to point out, that i'm not saying that we shouldn't eat plants, coz we obviously have to eat to survive, but like cosmic pointed out, they are living things too, and i believe that like every living things, they too feel pain.

: GreenEarthAl Jul 31 2003, 06:43 AM


And I continue to disagree. I do not believe that plants have the capacity to process pain. Even a sophisticated plant like the Venus flytrap, an anomoly of sophistication in the plant world, is without sentience.

My little laundry list of things a plant will never do was just a beginning. As a vegitarian I personally do not eat seafood-- having to do with avoidance of PBTs as well as any morality type thing-- but yes I would place a sea muscle above a plant.

The world of organisms is conveniently divided into the things that have square cells and no thinking, and the things with the amorphic cells, many of which do think. I am able to slap a misquito on my arm without guilt, I don't believe I'm robbing it of much of a range of life.

Humans have a unique sophistication of thought, and I do feel it's time they started using that sophistication of thought to ponder what they are doing to the natural world through their population patterns and their self-interested focus on greedy persuits.


: cosmic Jul 31 2003, 06:57 AM

QUOTE
Humans have a unique sophistication of thought, and I do feel it's time they started using that sophistication of thought to ponder what they are doing to the natural world through their population patterns and their self-interested focus on greedy persuits.



So is this why, sophisticated thought, we have the physical atributes of a carnivore but choose not to eat meat? Without this thought all humans would be putting their canines to use...and not discriminating between plants and animals, right? What other carnivore chooses to be vegetarian because of moral issues?

: Sara Aug 1 2003, 11:56 PM

QUOTE (GreenEarthAl @ Aug 1 2003, 03:43 AM)
And I continue to disagree. I do not believe that plants have the capacity to process pain. Even a sophisticated plant like the Venus flytrap, an anomoly of sophistication in the plant world, is without sentience.


see this is precisely what i'm talking bout, anthropomorphism, it's a terrible way to view things, ur viewing them as inferior, even if ur not explicitly saying u r.


QUOTE
My little laundry list of things a plant will never do was just a beginning. As a vegitarian I personally do not eat seafood-- having to do with avoidance of PBTs as well as any morality type thing-- but yes I would place a sea muscle above a plant.



here ur saying that u don't eat seafood, mussles have no pain receptors, so they dont feel pain, but u dont eat it, yet u eat plants coz they dont feel pain wacko.gif
u also say u place mussle above a plant, no, this is not how they are viewd, it's not a hierarchy... unsure.gif



QUOTE
The world of organisms is conveniently divided into the things that have square cells and no thinking, and the things with the amorphic cells, many of which do think. I am able to slap a misquito on my arm without guilt, I don't believe I'm robbing it of much of a range of life.


square cells with no thinking? whaaat does this have to do with pain? u dont have to think to feel pain.


QUOTE
Humans have a unique sophistication of thought, and I do feel it's time they started using that sophistication of thought to ponder what they are doing to the natural world through their population patterns and their self-interested focus on greedy persuits.


it's funny how u talk about really how humans should just drop the attitude, yet u urself speak with the very typical arrogant human attitude of "the world of organisims is conveniently devided into etc etc" "conveniently"? since when this is how it works? the world wasnt made for our convenience....

: GreenEarthAl Aug 3 2003, 10:32 AM

I have no problem saying explicitly that we have abilities that plants do not have and that I value those abilities more highly than I value what a plant does. To me, Michael Moore writing/directing a film like Bowling for Columbine is more interesting than Ficus sitting there doing its photosynthesis all day long.

Obviously, the agrigate value of plants is greater than the agrigate value of humans. If there were no more plants, all or nearly all life would die in pretty short order. If all humans were gone tomorrow, few other species would mind terribly.

I have yet to comprehend why anyone thinks I should feel remorse for a celery stalk that goes through a food processor. It's relatives aren't going to miss it, I do not believe that it is self aware, it just seems like a big non event to me. Another one just like it will begin to grow soon after. Whereas if you put a 7 year old child through the food processor, their family will be seriously pissed, all of their developing talents will all go for naught, the child will be aware of what's happening to it, etc.


: Rage Man Leca Aug 3 2003, 10:49 AM

ok ok wowowow........your basing this on one fucking article........

: Rage Man Leca Aug 3 2003, 10:55 AM

everyone is going crazy........haha told you planets feel pain etc.........its one article........don't take everything so seriously..........its the internet!

mellow.gif

: cosmic Aug 3 2003, 11:27 AM

Crazy? huh.gif What do you know about plant physiology and the dynamics of plant as a lifeform? If you have some undeniable truth that backs up your post, I'd be interested in hearing it. First, I'm not only going on that article...that's the closest one that I could find on the internet of the experiments I read at school. Second, were mostly talking about science that is cutting edge and practically, maybe mostly, philosophical.

: GreenEarthAl Aug 3 2003, 12:25 PM

QUOTE (cosmic @ Jul 31 2003, 02:57 PM)

So is this why, sophisticated thought, we have the physical atributes of a carnivore but choose not to eat meat? Without this thought all humans would be putting their canines to use...and not discriminating between plants and animals, right? What other carnivore chooses to be vegetarian because of moral issues?


Humans have the physical characteristics of an omnivore.

Lions can eat antelope with a clear conscious because they don't clearcut a swath the size of France out of the Amazonian jumngles to raise antelopes. Also, I've tried talking to lions about the increasing amounts of PBTs in the food chain (PCBs especially) but they never listen to me. Lions just do whatever the fuck they feel like and damned if you can ever get them to listen to reason.


: cosmic Aug 3 2003, 12:38 PM

Yea, I was just saying we have attributes of carnivores too.

: resist Aug 5 2003, 03:05 AM

oh my god something just came to mind.................
lets just say we are not supposed to eat meat or plants
so the plants themselves grow us nuts and fruit to eat
when they fall of the plant its self that way we have something
to eat.












thankyou and goodnight cool.gif


: Moremi Aug 5 2003, 03:17 AM

So you think we should be fruitarians? huh.gif

No thank you cool.gif

: Sara Aug 5 2003, 03:42 AM

QUOTE (GreenEarthAl @ Aug 4 2003, 07:32 AM)
I have no problem saying explicitly that we have abilities that plants do not have and that I value those abilities more highly than I value what a plant does.  To me, Michael Moore writing/directing a film like Bowling for Columbine is more interesting than Ficus sitting there doing its photosynthesis all day long. 


is this bout plants being more intersting? no it's bout them feeling pain, is it ok to kill someone coz their boring? no it's not.


QUOTE
I have yet to comprehend why anyone thinks I should feel remorse for a celery stalk that goes through a food processor. It's relatives aren't going to miss it, I do not believe that it is self aware, it just seems like a big non event to me. Another one just like it will begin to grow soon after. Whereas if you put a 7 year old child through the food processor, their family will be seriously pissed, all of their developing talents will all go for naught, the child will be aware of what's happening to it, etc.



is this bout veggies being missed by others? fish isnt missed by it's mother, in fact, the mother fish drops eggs in the sea, and they later become fertilized, and thats that, there's no relationship between the mother and baby fish, yet u dont kill fish.

if i had no family would it justify killing me? i hope not.


it' not bout being missed, it's the notion that all living things feel pain.



: ImperialAerosolKid Mar 13 2004, 08:05 PM

wow

: rampage Mar 13 2004, 09:31 PM

No shit! my plants wouldn't stop screaming for water, they made me water them before I finished reading this post ~ they wanted to fill their viens wth the electrodes of their minds so they could be wide awake to hear me read this shit!

Hey~ they're my (shit some are over 24 years old) ficus'


what screaming puppies

i'd of thought someone dropped them out a window or something!

: ImperialAerosolKid Mar 14 2004, 05:33 PM

tongue.gif

: Underground Mar 14 2004, 06:32 PM

QUOTE (cosmic @ Jul 31 2003, 04:49 AM)
QUOTE
I don't think plants feel pain. I don't think they have the intellectual capacity to mind pain even if they did feel it. Plants do have some sensory perception but I think it's alright to eat them.


How about people in a coma or no intellectuall capacity? Animals with nervous disorders that don't feel? Are they as "lowly" as a plant?

that logic is prety spurios.
even a person in a comatose means so much more to their family and friends etc than a plant. that is why we would kill a plant over a human.

: rampage Mar 15 2004, 12:52 AM

I reaally shouldn't make my plants spank me so much for attention

I would never over waterr


but.... damn I've been stressing them too much

and they were cool about it when I had no choice

but the bitch fucck roomates

dont want no down tttttime fucking past thing sucking time;;;; of that yummy earth b lood


those vampires


wonderful gentle roomates

i findd myself needing a bigger place for them

shit

and they never bitch


yea rigiht

: Metzli Mar 15 2004, 01:04 AM

wacko.gif wacko.gif wacko.gif wacko.gif wacko.gif wacko.gif wacko.gif wacko.gif







shifty.gif

: ImperialAerosolKid Mar 21 2004, 06:57 PM

Venus Fly Traps feel hunger which is a type of pain.

I try to anesthesize my herb now since cosmic made me feel so guilty with this thread....

: Moremi Apr 16 2004, 05:31 AM

I also read that in addition to insects, they eat small fish huh.gif

: red@tm.net Apr 16 2004, 09:38 AM

they don't have nerves and they don't have brains to calculate whats coming from the nerves that don't exist. there for i'm pretting sure they can't feel pain.

: Casbah Apr 16 2004, 11:01 AM

what about man-eating plants? i have a feeling they exist somewhere... shifty.gif

: Vespertine Apr 16 2004, 01:51 PM

QUOTE (Lpldbloom @ Mar 21 2004, 06:57 PM)
Venus Fly Traps feel hunger which is a type of pain.

I try to anesthesize my herb now since cosmic made me feel so guilty with this thread....

one comment, hunger is not externally inflicted.

: Sara Apr 16 2004, 02:12 PM

^ hey wavenew.gif


what people don't get is, plants are living creatures, even if u guys choose to believe they don't feel anything, they are living things that deserve respect like every other living thing. like dont go round killing trees that are blocking ur view or park ur car on the tree roots. rolleyes.gif

: ImperialAerosolKid Apr 16 2004, 03:40 PM

yes sarah!!!!

: Holter Apr 16 2004, 05:39 PM

So i take it none of you plant lovers smoke weed then, right? Hanging plants upside down until they are bone dry and dead, and then burning their dead carcass for pure enjoyment?

lol



: Sara Apr 16 2004, 05:56 PM

i dont smoke pot. however, when i think of pot and cigs i really have a different perspective on this. it's medicinal to me really so it is different from poisoning trees to get a better seaview or to park on the tree roots or pull leaves from trees coz one is bored.


this is just my view though.

: red@tm.net Apr 16 2004, 06:00 PM

birgits_stonn.gif

did i read that right cigs are medicinal.

so their sacrificing their lives for us. oh what noble things they are.

: Holter Apr 16 2004, 06:04 PM

well you cant pick and choose which form of death is wrong and which is "ok" IMO.

Id rather be poisoned than have my feet chopped off and hung upside down so i will have a long slow death. Just my point of view.

: Sara Apr 16 2004, 06:08 PM

i'm not picking...

killing a chicken to eat is just as bad as killing a plant to eat, this is my point.

also, u cannot apply ur human preferences eg. id rather be poisoned than have my leggs chopped off, to plants coz we're talking about plants, not you. how do u know what plants would prefer happen to them?

: Holter Apr 16 2004, 06:10 PM

well i was under the impression that we were talking about all living things here, and not a comparison between humans and plants. You can talk about this like I did if you are talking about all living things. I think that anything would rather die quickly than a long slow painful death.

I dont see the difference.

: Sara Apr 16 2004, 06:15 PM

oh ok so ur against pot because the way it is prepared? how do u hang them upside down? once u take the plant out of it's normal habitat, the plant dies, no?

it's not a comparison between humans and plants, i was just saying, have some respect. im not against using plants for medicinal purposes or for eating. do u see what im saying? i eat plants and i eat animals, coz animals eat animals and plants well, they're great most of them dont eat others.

: Holter Apr 16 2004, 06:20 PM

yeah I see what your saying, and yeah thats what you do to pot, lol.
But i dont smoke anymore, promise

I respect plants, but not more than I respect humans. Protect your own species first, right?


: Sara Apr 16 2004, 06:22 PM

naturally everyspecies will protect itself first and will put its benefits over other species's benifits, i just dont tend to think of us competing.

: red@tm.net Apr 16 2004, 06:38 PM

QUOTE
how do u know what plants would prefer happen to them?


they don't prefer anything, they have no brain. they lack the proper equipment that is required to do this.

: Holter Apr 16 2004, 07:11 PM

i just wanted to say that upon reflection of this thread, i cant believe that I am arguing whether or not plants have feelings, and that if you smoke pot you are hurting plants. lol. you guys are too funny

: cosmic Apr 16 2004, 08:02 PM

QUOTE (red@tm.net @ Apr 16 2004, 10:38 AM)
they don't have nerves and they don't have brains to calculate whats coming from the nerves that don't exist. there for i'm pretting sure they can't feel pain.

very true. Relating that to the thread... would a brain dead or paralysed person be fed to a shark because they can't feel anything?

: Sara Apr 16 2004, 08:43 PM

QUOTE (BholteRage @ Apr 17 2004, 03:11 PM)
i just wanted to say that upon reflection of this thread, i cant believe that I am arguing whether or not plants have feelings, and that if you smoke pot you are hurting plants. lol. you guys are too funny

i fail to see the humor in all this blink.gif

: red@tm.net Apr 16 2004, 09:06 PM

QUOTE
QUOTE (red@tm.net @ Apr 16 2004, 10:38 AM)
they don't have nerves and they don't have brains to calculate whats coming from the nerves that don't exist. there for i'm pretting sure they can't feel pain.

very true. Relating that to the thread... would a brain dead or paralysed person be fed to a shark because they can't feel anything?



hmmm, damn you cosmic. bangin.gif

: Holter Apr 16 2004, 10:17 PM

QUOTE (Sarah @ Apr 16 2004, 09:43 PM)
QUOTE (BholteRage @ Apr 17 2004, 03:11 PM)
i just wanted to say that upon reflection of this thread, i cant believe that I am arguing whether or not plants have feelings, and that if you smoke pot you are hurting plants. lol.  you guys are too funny

i fail to see the humor in all this blink.gif

just never thought I would be arguing about whether or not plants have feelings.

: Sara Apr 16 2004, 10:26 PM

i dont get it, what's funny about that?

: Holter Apr 16 2004, 10:45 PM

damnit im so mad, i had this whole post written up and then the site crashed when i tried to submit it. Then when I got it back up all of the new posts I hadnt read are now gone. zmat2.gif zmat2.gif

Luckily i copied my post before i submitted it just in case. lol




omg Sarah. I think you know that I dont agree with you guys here. I totally dont think that plants have feelings, but Im not going to come on here and tell you guys that you are wrong. Maybe I am, who knows. But whats funny is that this is an argument that can never be figured out, yet for some reason I continued to debate it with you.

Cosmic has a good point about the paralyzed man being thrown to a shark, but I dont see the relevance, sharks dont eat plants. And if there are sharks that eat plants, then they sure as hell wouldnt eat another animal as far as I know.

Do you avoid walking on grass, everytime you step you are bending a piece in half. Have you ever eaten maple syrup? They stab into a tree and let it slowly ooze into a pot. All these things would hurt anything. Most pain in humans is mental. The more you focus on what is hurting you the more it hurts. Ive been burnt badly before and it hurt like hell, but once you try to channel your focus on something else it hurts considerably less. That to me means that pain is a mental issue, and seeing as plaints dont have a brain, they dont feel pain in the same way that we do. To them its just an obstacle in their way of life. Like the punture hole in the side of a maple tree, It hurts because it is losing a part of itself. But it doesnt realize that it is hurting, it just trudges along. A plant doesnt know about potential circumstances that may come from that puncture wound. We do, so we focus on it and the pain becomes worse because of fear. IMO plants do not have the capacity for fear or hurt because they lack our intelligence, which we all know is what separates us from every other species on Earth. This can be a good and bad thing in us, but that is not a part of this argument.

I was not trying to belittle your argument, because I can se that you and spaceta have a common respect for plants and their individual life, and I respect that. I just dont feel as strongly as the two of you, and whoever else feels this way. So i guess you are right, its not funny to you and maybe I shouldnty have said that because it may have belittled one of your causes or beliefs. Sorry

: cosmic Apr 16 2004, 11:01 PM

The point of all this stems from, no pun intendes, the argument of eating meat. Most veggies here said its because of the pain that an animal feels when killed. So if there's no pain, then its ok? My point is that plants, like animals are alive. Neither should be subject to our heirarchy of who is spared for nutrition. I eat meat, just like the thousands of animals around the world do; I eat plants, just like thousands of animals around the world do.

: Holter Apr 16 2004, 11:15 PM

so when you break it down, youre basically calling any vegetarian a hypocrite?

thats interesting

: cosmic Apr 16 2004, 11:32 PM

Well, thats a harsh word. I'm just defending my actions. All of this was a reaction to a member that hasn't been by in a while, Rage man Leca. He would constantly bash any member that mentioned meat.

: Banksy Apr 17 2004, 12:44 PM

plants don't have a conscience so dont know what going on and certainly they cant feel pain.

: Holter Apr 18 2004, 01:38 AM

sad.gif

: Moremi Apr 18 2004, 10:12 AM

dunno.gif

: cosmic Apr 18 2004, 10:45 AM

QUOTE (Banksy @ Apr 17 2004, 01:44 PM)
plants don't have a conscience so dont know what going on and certainly they cant feel pain.

But they're alive, correct?

Does a fish have a conscience?

: Sara Apr 18 2004, 07:30 PM

^ good point


and ok, ppl that dont eat animals for moral reasons believe that animals feel pain and plants dont, not all animals feel pain? mussels dont, yet ppl that refuse to eat meat refuse to eat mussels too, so yeah.. unsure.gif

: Underground Apr 18 2004, 09:41 PM

QUOTE (Underground @ Mar 15 2004, 02:32 AM)
QUOTE (cosmic @ Jul 31 2003, 04:49 AM)
QUOTE
I don't think plants feel pain. I don't think they have the intellectual capacity to mind pain even if they did feel it. Plants do have some sensory perception but I think it's alright to eat them.


How about people in a coma or no intellectuall capacity? Animals with nervous disorders that don't feel? Are they as "lowly" as a plant?

that logic is prety spurios.
even a person in a comatose means so much more to their family and friends etc than a plant. that is why we would kill a plant over a human.

cosmic, are you going to respond to this?

: Sara Apr 18 2004, 09:57 PM

i'm not speaking for cosmic here, but the point was all is a living thing, so i dont understand how some ppl claim it immoral to eat meat but ok to eat plants. ppl came with the argument that plants have no conscious, so cosmic came up with that example.

the point of the thread was not to say that we'd rather kill animals over plants, or kill a person over a plant. of course if one has to choose who to kill, they wouldnt kill a person to eat...or kill the person to save the plant...


it's not about that.

: Casbah Apr 18 2004, 10:00 PM

what else can you eat if you cant eat anything made from a plant or an animal?

dirt? unsure.gif eww, but one time i had some dirt that was pretty tastey shifty.gif tongue.gif

: Sara Apr 18 2004, 10:15 PM

why is everyone missing the point...


the point is, i cant see why it's more valid to eat plants over animals.


we need to eat to survive.

: Banksy Apr 19 2004, 09:58 AM

QUOTE (cosmic @ Apr 18 2004, 06:45 PM)
QUOTE (Banksy @ Apr 17 2004, 01:44 PM)
plants don't have a conscience so dont know what going on and certainly they cant feel pain.

But they're alive, correct?

Does a fish have a conscience?

yeah good point. but personally i dont think a fish has a conscience and if it does its not large enough to remember things or feel real pain. anyway the food chain says we eat both plants and animals but i think its wrong to have battery hens and how some animals are killed it has been said by scientists that some animals can sense that they are going to be killed on the way to the slaughter place. weird.

: cosmic Apr 19 2004, 10:21 AM

QUOTE (Underground @ Apr 18 2004, 10:41 PM)
QUOTE (Underground @ Mar 15 2004, 02:32 AM)
QUOTE (cosmic @ Jul 31 2003, 04:49 AM)
QUOTE
I don't think plants feel pain. I don't think they have the intellectual capacity to mind pain even if they did feel it. Plants do have some sensory perception but I think it's alright to eat them.


How about people in a coma or no intellectuall capacity? Animals with nervous disorders that don't feel? Are they as "lowly" as a plant?

that logic is prety spurios.
even a person in a comatose means so much more to their family and friends etc than a plant. that is why we would kill a plant over a human.

cosmic, are you going to respond to this?

that's besides the point. Family is easily removed from the fact of the matter.

Ok, by your example...What if they had no family? Nobody cared or loved them?

: ImperialAerosolKid Apr 19 2004, 10:39 AM

I think pain is a give and take between entities. Hurt a lettuce head, have a salad. Hook afish, have stuffed trout, shoot one of four deer hearts have a venison steak.

I bet the first man a cave man killed was a vegetarian. And then he ate him.

: Aussie1975 Apr 20 2004, 12:46 AM

Plants do not have a central nervous system so I believe it would be highly unlikely (although nobody can say for certain) that plants would not feel pain.

: cosmic Apr 20 2004, 06:24 AM

^yep, been though that. Read previous posts.

: joemomma86 Apr 30 2004, 05:33 PM

it's funny reading what you say, sarah. it sounds to me like you just like eating meat and are looking for all the reasons you can to justify your lust for dead carcasses. it's okay though, i know how weak people are.

: rev79 Apr 30 2004, 09:17 PM

QUOTE (joemomma86 @ Apr 30 2004, 08:33 PM)
i know how weak people are.

rolleyes.gif So now she's weak because she eats meat? I eat it all day, and I assure you, I'm not weak. I think we can turn that around and say you're the one with the weak stomach because you're afraid to ingest meat into your body, correct? Yes...

: Casbah Apr 30 2004, 09:39 PM

QUOTE
it's funny reading what you say, sarah. it sounds to me like you just like eating meat and are looking for all the reasons you can to justify your lust for dead carcasses. it's okay though, i know how weak people are.


in the words of underground: "what a wanker Crylol.gif "

: Sara Apr 30 2004, 10:23 PM

QUOTE (joemomma86 @ May 1 2004, 01:33 PM)
it's funny reading what you say, sarah. it sounds to me like you just like eating meat and are looking for all the reasons you can to justify your lust for dead carcasses. it's okay though, i know how weak people are.

first off i dont like eating meat, i dont like the taste, i eat it to get nutrients. second, im not looking for reasons to justify anything, i dont need to justify anything, just like u have a belief system, i have one too. and third, the weak one out of all of us, is the one that refuses to see other people's views as valid belief systems simply because they dont match his belief system.





: Sara Apr 30 2004, 10:25 PM

QUOTE (revolutionusa @ May 1 2004, 05:17 PM)
QUOTE (joemomma86 @ Apr 30 2004, 08:33 PM)
i know how weak people are.

rolleyes.gif So now she's weak because she eats meat? I eat it all day, and I assure you, I'm not weak. I think we can turn that around and say you're the one with the weak stomach because you're afraid to ingest meat into your body, correct? Yes...

QUOTE
in the words of underground: "what a wanker Crylol.gif"



^^ smartass.gif althu wanker is a bit harsh.

: joemomma86 May 10 2004, 01:50 AM

if you don't even like it, then what's the point? and nutrients? do you not read the nutrition facts on vegetable based products? and thanks rev, i'm glad somebody was successful at not understanding what i said. first off, i'm not afraid, i'm aware. and unlike you, i have respect for other species of animal, so i prefer to abstain from eating their dead carcasses. now maybe you enjoy the taste of death and think that you're cute, but that's you, the one that is oblivious to the world around him. remain that way, it'll get you so far in life.

: rev79 May 10 2004, 01:59 AM

^Incidentally, I am a cute mofo- but it really has nothing to do with why I eat meat. shifty.gif My eyes are wide open, bub..survival of the fittest!
Go the next, say, 40 years without eating a shred of meat, and maybe you'll be a dead carcass.

: Sara May 10 2004, 03:43 PM

QUOTE (joemomma86 @ May 10 2004, 09:50 PM)
if you don't even like it, then what's the point? and nutrients? do you not read the nutrition facts on vegetable based products? and thanks rev, i'm glad somebody was successful at not understanding what i said. first off, i'm not afraid, i'm aware. and unlike you, i have respect for other species of animal, so i prefer to abstain from eating their dead carcasses. now maybe you enjoy the taste of death and think that you're cute, but that's you, the one that is oblivious to the world around him. remain that way, it'll get you so far in life.

the problem is, i dont have to justify to u or anyone why i eat meat. i have respect for animals and for plants, both cows and trees, now u want to eat plants coz u think it's more valid, then by all means, but going round calling ppl weak coz they eat meat? i mean yeah no definately not weak, but whatever.

yes i eat veggies more than anything, i do no they are very nutrious, but im not going to take iron pills to avoid eating meat, that is just me. in my view eating meat is just like eating plants.

other animals eat meat, our ancestors ate meat for 1000's of years. eating meat is how we go to where we r now, brain expantion was promoted by eating meat...so it's important.


the point is, we disagree at this, coz u think it is more valid or more ok to eat plants than meat, i dont, and that's that, i respect ur views, not trying to change urs at all, and not trying to change mine either.

next time u pick a bouquet of flowers think of how disrespectful that is to the plant kingdom. smile.gif


ps. this is getting off topic, this topic is bout plants, not bout eating meat.

: joemomma86 May 11 2004, 04:30 PM

i don't even pick flowers. and rev, it doesn't surprise me that you think you're cute, i figure that when somebody just has to put a pic up of them using their digital camera. ego. survival of the fittest? you think this is some kind of competition? the least that this bullshit of a species can do is care for other species of animal since we are so fucking "intelligent". advice: get your head out of your ass and maybe look at the world and animals as a responsibility, not a fucking race for superiority.

: Sara May 11 2004, 06:55 PM

QUOTE (joemomma86 @ May 12 2004, 12:30 PM)
i don't even pick flowers. and rev, it doesn't surprise me that you think you're cute, i figure that when somebody just has to put a pic up of them using their digital camera. ego. survival of the fittest? you think this is some kind of competition? the least that this bullshit of a species can do is care for other species of animal since we are so fucking "intelligent". advice: get your head out of your ass and maybe look at the world and animals as a responsibility, not a fucking race for superiority.

not sure where to begin

ok using a digital cam to post one's pic..um what's wrong with that? most of us here, including vegeterians did that...so um ok? unsure.gif


show respec to animals but not plants? im not sure...is it ok to not eat animals to show them respect, but ok to eat plants and not show them respect? ill logic?


this get ur head out of ur ass talk...is no good...and i think eventually the topic is gonna have to be closed.


this is so offtopic mellow.gif

: rev79 May 11 2004, 08:45 PM

QUOTE (Sarah @ May 11 2004, 09:55 PM)


this is so offtopic

True, and I'm not going to stray more than once so I can bash this ignoramous.
VIVA LA MEAT!
laugh.gif

: cosmic May 11 2004, 10:05 PM

I eat meat, so? If I catch it myself, even better...less trauma on the animal compared to slaughterhouses. Every living thing deserves to live. Period.

: joemomma86 May 18 2004, 04:48 PM

FINE, it's so fucking okay to eat animals because it's JUST LIKE eating plants because plants have beating hearts and a central nervous system like EVERYTHING ELSE on the planet including water and rocks. so "ILL LOGIC" is saying that WE SHOULDN'T EAT ANYTHING BECAUSE IT ALL HAS A FEELING. so don't drink water! it's disrespectful!

: cosmic May 18 2004, 05:02 PM

cool, we got some agreement.

: Fanatical Radical May 18 2004, 08:29 PM

ok,

whoever said that pain receptors feel pain must not understand the point of a nerve cell: it detects stimuli, sends a signal to the brain, the brain interprets the signal. the cell itself does nothing but scan and send, it's like the recievor of a telephone, does it "hear" or just collect vibrations and transfer them to the speaker at the other end for the audience to interpret. anyways this is off topic...

As far as plants interpretting pain, i must admit i am skeptical. but until i can know that they don't have a consciousness on some level then i won't dismiss the idea. all beings have reflexes to tramua, if you hit an apple it bruises, or if you puncture an apple it will wilt in the surrounding area. these don't mean that the creature has felt pain on a conscious level.

Now treating plants with respect is something i think everyone should understand. They are not lower organisms, infact plant-life existed free from the influences of animal life long before our ancestors crawled onto dry land (assuming evolution as fact). That shows me that actually are more complex of systems are still not superior, we are parasites living of off plantlife, while they would be the greater beings needing only light and raw material to grow. Not that i would sooner hit a person then a tree (try explaining that one to the cops...) but the point remains that all life should be given respect.

: insurrection May 21 2004, 12:56 PM

listen to that song by tool, called disgustipated... great song.

: Nino May 23 2004, 08:56 AM

Surely if a plant can feel pain it would of made some sort of response to show the pain. Also would it need a brain, receptors and a nervous system to feel or recognize pain.

: cosmic May 23 2004, 02:44 PM

Plants are extraordinary organisms. The lengths they go to reproduce, grow(strangler fig?), flower, and the awesome way they "feel" the earth. It would be ignorant of us to assume plants are sensory defecient.

: Nino May 24 2004, 05:06 AM

But they dont really feel they reach for nutrients. Roots dont feel they just sense for example water and take it from the soil. In my opinion i would say a living thing would have to have a brain that recognizes pain and if it did i would presume it would produce something to counteract the threat of being put in pain for example a person who is going to be punched will normally try to avoid thepunch not to get hurt.

: Banksy May 24 2004, 05:56 AM

QUOTE
they just sense for example water
= sensory.

I agree though i don't think plants feel pain like we feel because they don't have a consience. Its debatable whether they can "sense" the pain though.

: Nino May 24 2004, 11:49 AM



QUOTE
= sensory.


What was the point in that banksy umm nevermind.

: Holter May 24 2004, 01:16 PM

my old post

QUOTE
Do you avoid walking on grass, everytime you step you are bending a piece in half. Have you ever eaten maple syrup? They stab into a tree and let it slowly ooze into a pot. All these things would hurt anything. Most pain in humans is mental. The more you focus on what is hurting you the more it hurts. Ive been burnt badly before and it hurt like hell, but once you try to channel your focus on something else it hurts considerably less. That to me means that pain is a mental issue, and seeing as plaints dont have a brain, they dont feel pain in the same way that we do. To them its just an obstacle in their way of life. Like the punture hole in the side of a maple tree, It hurts because it is losing a part of itself. But it doesnt realize that it is hurting, it just trudges along. A plant doesnt know about potential circumstances that may come from that puncture wound. We do, so we focus on it and the pain becomes worse because of fear. IMO plants do not have the capacity for fear or hurt because they lack our intelligence, which we all know is what separates us from every other species on Earth. This can be a good and bad thing in us, but that is not a part of this argument.

: Banksy May 24 2004, 01:18 PM

Because cosmic said "it would be ignorant of us to assume plants are sensory defecient" then you put "Roots dont feel they just sense for example water"

: cosmic May 24 2004, 02:16 PM

here we go in our little loop again. So basically its only about "pain"...not that its alive?

: Fanatical Radical May 25 2004, 06:52 AM

QUOTE (cosmic @ May 24 2004, 10:16 PM)
here we go in our little loop again. So basically its only about "pain"...not that its alive?

I think your right

The main issue people have with plants and the feeling of pain isn't anything beyond the very definition of pain.

in a dictionary pain is defined as:

1. An unpleasant sensation occurring in varying degrees of severity as a consequence of injury, disease, or emotional disorder.
2. Suffering or distress.
3. pains The pangs of childbirth.
4. pains Great care or effort: take pains with one's work.
5. Informal. A source of annoyance; a nuisance.

Under those definitions I wouldn't believe that plants feel pain. However if you define pain as a stress response, generally with the intention to aviod pain then i know plants feel pain. It's been observed many times that plants have actual http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=14751300.

So I think that everyone isn't arguing whether or not plants feel pain, but more-so indirectly arguing "what is pain"

: Nino May 25 2004, 07:55 AM

A plant doesnt have a nervous system, a co ordinator eg a brain or spinal colum. A plant is like a group of specalized tissues that dont feel and dont sense pain.

: cosmic May 25 2004, 08:37 AM

^ that has been reiterated through and through.

Doesn't every organism have the right to live whether or not it has the capacity to sense "pain?"

: Nino May 26 2004, 07:20 AM

It has no rights its a plant. I understand where our coming from but in my opinion it may have a right to live but its not really that important for it too. Although without plants and trees we would die i dont think killing a measly plant is going to count as murder or if someone does they shouldnt feel like they have killed anything with much purpose.

: cosmic May 26 2004, 10:25 AM

QUOTE
It has no rights its a plant


Why not? Explain...

QUOTE
they shouldnt feel like they have killed anything with much purpose.


Are you serious? ohno.gif Plants don't have much purpose?

: ImperialAerosolKid May 26 2004, 12:03 PM

Even when you kill an animal for food it still has a purpose. Live life without living plants...you'll understand purpose when you're fainting from too much carbon dioxide.

: cosmic May 26 2004, 12:27 PM

Right on.


Just the rain forests themselves produce 40% of the earths oxygen.

: Nino May 26 2004, 02:42 PM

QUOTE
Although without plants and trees we would die


If you read that it tells you that i said trees have a purpose. Trees are more important then plants and why should it have rights its doesnt really live it just grows without doing anything except producing certain things and turning carbon dioxide into oxygen, that why plants dont have rights because they dont really live they just function.

: cosmic May 26 2004, 04:40 PM

When I say "plants" i mean the entire plantae kingdom.

QUOTE
Trees are more important then plants and why should it have rights its doesnt really live it just grows without doing anything except producing certain things and turning carbon dioxide into oxygen



????

...eh, turning co2 into oxygen isn't much. huh.gif

QUOTE
that why plants dont have rights because they dont really live they just function.


functioning is living.

: ImperialAerosolKid May 26 2004, 05:11 PM

a debate on the utility/futility of plants????

If we were any more anal retentive our neckties would turn to bowties.


(No...I'm not wearing a tie.) cool.gif

: Nino May 27 2004, 12:37 AM

QUOTE
functioning is living


Not really my computer functions but it isnt alive. It depends on how you interprete the word living. A plant has a purpose to turn carbond dioxide into oxygen it produces other things that arent really important. In my opinion a plant doesnt have any rights because it isnt the same as a animal or a human in the aspect that it doesnt have a brain.

: ImperialAerosolKid May 27 2004, 02:54 AM

QUOTE (amaru @ May 27 2004, 08:37 AM)
QUOTE
functioning is living


Not really my computer functions but it isnt alive. It depends on how you interprete the word living. A plant has a purpose to turn carbond dioxide into oxygen it produces other things that arent really important. In my opinion a plant doesnt have any rights because it isnt the same as a animal or a human in the aspect that it doesnt have a brain.

Now that lack of brain comment was an unintentional straight line right???

: Nino May 27 2004, 04:22 AM

QUOTE
Now that lack of brain comment was an unintentional straight line right???


In english ?

: Banksy May 27 2004, 05:28 AM

QUOTE (amaru @ May 27 2004, 08:37 AM)
QUOTE
functioning is living


Not really my computer functions but it isnt alive. It depends on how you interprete the word living.

I was taught in primary school (as where you, i sat next to you) that living things are determined by the 7 life process things:
Movement
Respiration
Sensitivity
Growth
Reproduction
Excretion
Nutrition

Your computer may be advanced but i know it doesn't do all of them. What determines how plants and other living things should be treated i beleive is whether they have a conscience or not. A plant doesn't so it can not question its instincts it just "functions" as you have said. The big argument whether vegertarians should eat fish or not is down to whether a fish has a conscience or a big enough one to know it exists. A cow however can choose to an extent whether she wants to sit or stand. Chew or not chew. She can move where ever she feels. Thats where I believe the divide to be.

: Nino May 27 2004, 07:16 AM

I agree with that banksy although i dont agree that something lives just because it follows those MRS GREN shifty.gif . In my opinion a plant merely survives and living should be thought of as you said something that has a capacity to decided what it could do like a cow standing and sitting good example.

: cosmic May 27 2004, 07:23 AM

so in essence, by your reasoning, humans just "function." Our brain is just waveform "functions."

Saying plants arent living is not true. They are alive. You plant a seed, out comes a living cellular organism. Every living thing has a right to live. Your computer is not alive, it doen't have a cellular biology.

What does a brain have to do with anything? Thats discrimination.

: Banksy May 27 2004, 07:46 AM

QUOTE (cosmic @ May 27 2004, 03:23 PM)
Saying plants arent living is not true. They are alive. You plant a seed, out comes a living cellular organism. Every living thing has a right to live. Your computer is not alive, it doen't have a cellular biology.

Plants are living thats true and they are very important part of our eco system and food chain. Like everything else thats living they our part of a food chain which is why the atatment you made about everything living has a right to live causes so many problems. Yes everything living does deserve to live but we shouldn't tammper with the food chains. Is it important though whether a plant dies or live because a plant doesn't have the inteligence to recognise whether its dead or alive.

: Banksy May 27 2004, 08:19 AM

Ive been reading what cosmic has wrote about this and it is impossible to find an answer to, do plants feel "pain"? Until now ive been taking the word "pain" as "ouch someone has just stood on my toe." or, "ive just lost my wife im so upset." "Pain" thoguh could be interpritated as many different things which means there is more than one answer for this argument. If you look at "pain" as the "ouch someone has stood on my toe" the initial reaction is to move your foot so your not in "Pain". Again if "ive just lost my wife im so upset." is "pain" to escape the "pain" you react to the situation by trying to get over the death of your wife. What im trying to say is that "pain" is a reaction to something. I always defined "pain" as being hurt or upset. "pain" could be defined as a stress that is applied to something and the something trys to react to the stress by trying to reduce it. The guy who had it foot stood on reacts to the stress by moving his foot. The other guy who lost his wife reacts in anyway he can to release the stress of loosing his loved one. A plant that is is the drak reacts by bending its stem so it able to take in light again. A leaf that is cut reacts by releasing Methane and healing the cut. I supose if you look at "pain" in this way, a plant does feel "pain". I hope what ive wrote makes sense because it just about makes sense to me and i find it hard to describe.

: Banksy May 27 2004, 08:29 AM

Im glad I made that statement now ^ . It means i can have a decent argument now with a vegertarian and i can justify my meat eating instinction. I just hope they don't starve themselves to death after it.

: cosmic May 27 2004, 08:51 AM

^ very nice argument banksy. A little messy, but I understood it.

: ImperialAerosolKid May 27 2004, 09:34 AM

QUOTE (amaru @ May 27 2004, 12:22 PM)
QUOTE
Now that lack of brain comment was an unintentional straight line right???


In english ?

Now that lack of brain comment was an unintentional straight line right???

: Banksy May 27 2004, 01:22 PM

QUOTE (cosmic @ May 27 2004, 04:51 PM)
^ very nice argument banksy. A little messy, but I understood it.

smile.gif Thanks cosimc, didn't think it was legible.

: Fanatical Radical May 27 2004, 08:11 PM

QUOTE (Banksy @ May 27 2004, 04:29 PM)
Im glad I made that statement now ^ . It means i can have a decent argument now with a vegertarian and i can justify my meat eating instinction. I just hope they don't starve themselves to death after it.

Being a vegetarian isn't just about not causing suffering for animals tongue.gif

but your right, all life should be seen as sacred, and should be treated with respect and only be taken if needed.

my reason for being a vegetarian is for environmental reason though....

: Banksy May 28 2004, 08:26 AM

QUOTE (Fanatical Radical @ May 28 2004, 04:11 AM)
QUOTE (Banksy @ May 27 2004, 04:29 PM)
Im glad I made that statement now ^ . It means i can have a decent argument now with a vegertarian and i can justify my meat eating instinction. I just hope they don't starve themselves to death after it.

Being a vegetarian isn't just about not causing suffering for animals tongue.gif

lol i know i was joking. Seriously though i do respect all vegertarians views, i think most vegaterians have really good views on not eating meat. Reasons like youv'e said about the enviromental side of it.

: lemming Jun 20 2004, 02:23 PM

Being alive is feeling pain. Who knows if plants are alive.

: ImperialAerosolKid Jun 20 2004, 02:42 PM

QUOTE (lemming @ Jun 20 2004, 10:23 PM)
Being alive is feeling pain. Who knows if plants are alive.

um the folks who breath the oxygen they exhale....

: lemming Jun 20 2004, 02:49 PM

Are people who are vegetables alive? I don't think so.

: ImperialAerosolKid Jun 20 2004, 04:41 PM

QUOTE (lemming @ Jun 20 2004, 10:49 PM)
Are people who are vegetables alive? I don't think so.

if a vegetable could talk..


see people assume that you need to adopt a soul to be alive. such crap. sometimes it's just shitting and eating.

: lemming Jun 20 2004, 05:08 PM

I'm talking about being alive as with a conscious. Not just consuming earthly resources. You pull a trigger on a gun, which makes the hammer fall. Is the gun a conscious living being? Or just a Object.

: mushroomlife Jun 28 2004, 03:19 PM

It's sort of redundant to mention this.....but I remember reading a snippet article in Omni magazine quite a few years back regarding this matter.... in this particular study there was a notable electro-chemical change in response to various stimuli... cutting, atmospheric changes, even the prescence of certain people and creatures, etc.... of course telling you all this is useless without citing the actual people and places involved in the study..... so I'll have to see if I can find that info and hit you back with that......

if I remember correctly it was the same issue as the guy who theorised our species would evolve further through the use of Magic Mushrooms.... but I may be mistaken.... oh well..... I'll try to find it and let you know...

: Floakly09 Nov 30 2009, 05:14 AM

I know what you mean about caring for the plants.
When I left to go abroad, it was VERY IMPORTANT to find
a good home for my plants.

Your two-colored Christmas Cactus sounds interesting.
You are fortunate to have friends who tend them for you.

Connie

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