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> 'our Troops', The patriotism of the liberal 'left'
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BOZG
Nov 28 2004, 01:53 PM
#1


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It's never nice to see someone die but there's quite a disgusting attitude in this thread. Regardless of whether this person was a nice guy, he still choose to fight for US imperialism, he still choose to go to Iraq to kill people, that cannot be excused. I don't want to see thousands of soldiers killed because many of these soldiers are working class kids, they're there because of the economic draft or because of some bullshit lies told by the capitalist class but they're still there. They may be pawns but they're killer pawns, whatever way you look at it.


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What is the Communist Party in a time of revolution? It is the revolutionary elite, powerfully organised, disciplined, obeying a consistent direction, marching towards a single clearly defined goal along the paths traced for it by a scientific doctrine. Being such a force, the party is the product of the necessity, that is the laws of history itself. That revolutionary elite which in a time of violence remains unorganized, undisciplined, without consistent direction and open to variable or contradictory impulses, is heading for suicide. No view at odds with this conclusion is possible. --- Victor Serge

Ireland, as distinct from her people, is nothing to me; and the man who is bubbling over with love and enthusiasm for "Ireland" and can yet pass unmoved through our streets and witness all the wrong and the suffering, the shame and the degradation wrought upon the people of Ireland -- yea, wrought by Irishmen upon Irish men and women, without burning to end it, is, in my opinion, a fraud and a liar in his heart, no matter how he loves that combination of chemical elements he is pleased to call Ireland. --- James Connolly
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AP
Nov 28 2004, 02:09 PM
#2


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Who cares? He was still a marine, that alone earns my respect right there. Any U.S. soldier dying is a sad thing for me....
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BOZG
Nov 28 2004, 02:11 PM
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Because he was a marine, he deserves respect. The man was a trained killer for US imperialism. You can harp on about how put himself up to defend his country all you like but when push comes to shove, his job is to protect US capitalist interests internationally and domestically. His job was to kill. Nothing more.



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What is the Communist Party in a time of revolution? It is the revolutionary elite, powerfully organised, disciplined, obeying a consistent direction, marching towards a single clearly defined goal along the paths traced for it by a scientific doctrine. Being such a force, the party is the product of the necessity, that is the laws of history itself. That revolutionary elite which in a time of violence remains unorganized, undisciplined, without consistent direction and open to variable or contradictory impulses, is heading for suicide. No view at odds with this conclusion is possible. --- Victor Serge

Ireland, as distinct from her people, is nothing to me; and the man who is bubbling over with love and enthusiasm for "Ireland" and can yet pass unmoved through our streets and witness all the wrong and the suffering, the shame and the degradation wrought upon the people of Ireland -- yea, wrought by Irishmen upon Irish men and women, without burning to end it, is, in my opinion, a fraud and a liar in his heart, no matter how he loves that combination of chemical elements he is pleased to call Ireland. --- James Connolly
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AP
Nov 28 2004, 02:14 PM
#4


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No shit, that's what Marines do.
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BOZG
Nov 28 2004, 02:17 PM
#5


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So you support mass murder in the name of imperialist conquest?


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What is the Communist Party in a time of revolution? It is the revolutionary elite, powerfully organised, disciplined, obeying a consistent direction, marching towards a single clearly defined goal along the paths traced for it by a scientific doctrine. Being such a force, the party is the product of the necessity, that is the laws of history itself. That revolutionary elite which in a time of violence remains unorganized, undisciplined, without consistent direction and open to variable or contradictory impulses, is heading for suicide. No view at odds with this conclusion is possible. --- Victor Serge

Ireland, as distinct from her people, is nothing to me; and the man who is bubbling over with love and enthusiasm for "Ireland" and can yet pass unmoved through our streets and witness all the wrong and the suffering, the shame and the degradation wrought upon the people of Ireland -- yea, wrought by Irishmen upon Irish men and women, without burning to end it, is, in my opinion, a fraud and a liar in his heart, no matter how he loves that combination of chemical elements he is pleased to call Ireland. --- James Connolly
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AP
Nov 28 2004, 02:24 PM
#6


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I guess I do
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zapatista
Nov 28 2004, 04:09 PM
#7


är du också likgiltig?
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QUOTE(BOZG @ Nov 28 2004, 04:53 PM)
It's never nice to see someone die but there's quite a disgusting attitude in this thread.  Regardless of whether this person was a nice guy, he still choose to fight for US imperialism, he still choose to go to Iraq to kill people, that cannot be excused.  I don't want to see thousands of soldiers killed because many of these soldiers are working class kids, they're there because of the economic draft or because of some bullshit lies told by the capitalist class but they're still there.  They may be pawns but they're killer pawns, whatever way you look at it.
[right][snapback]145766[/snapback][/right]

There isn't any room in this thread for that... if you want to spew that shit, take it somewhere else.


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AP
Nov 28 2004, 04:15 PM
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Thank you for saying that Zap. For whatever reason that's what I was trying to get at, but just couldn't say it right...
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Holter
Nov 28 2004, 05:02 PM
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QUOTE(BOZG @ Nov 28 2004, 02:53 PM)
It's never nice to see someone die but there's quite a disgusting attitude in this thread.  Regardless of whether this person was a nice guy, he still choose to fight for US imperialism, he still choose to go to Iraq to kill people, that cannot be excused.  I don't want to see thousands of soldiers killed because many of these soldiers are working class kids, they're there because of the economic draft or because of some bullshit lies told by the capitalist class but they're still there.  They may be pawns but they're killer pawns, whatever way you look at it.
[right][snapback]145766[/snapback][/right]



HAHAHA you are so lost its hilarious. What zap said though is perfect. Not to mention the fact that most us military personnel that are in Iraq didnt sign up to kill innocent iraqis or whatever you said, they enlisted before this whole fuck up happened. So dont blame them, not to mention they are fighting because other people wont.

Theres a difference between not supporting the war and not supporting your soldiers. I dont support the war, but i would never turn my back on the people fighting for my country.


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Grimer 54
Nov 29 2004, 07:05 AM
#10


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Also, it's not like all the marines and soldiers over there are going house to house, killing civillians. Yes it happens in war, and it is terrible, and, maybe we shouldn't be over there in the first place anyway. . .

However, they are over there fighting insurgeants, who otherwise would be strong arming the regular citizens of Iraq through fear. BOZG, your ideal is just as inhumane as this capatilist attitude you suggest is wholly responsible for Iraq. You have no compassion.


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QUOTE(Grimer 54)
Society begets government. Anarchist theory is actually just a pseudo-intellectual state of denial, an idealistic illusion that can never be more than a wholly unfulfilled dream. Thus, it is a counter-productive measure that actually weakens, rather than improves the progress of society as government is inevitable in the maintenance of civilization. Therefore, it is infinitely more effective to pursue political upheaval through the system, rather then against the system. For despite all of its flaws, both Democracy and Capitalism are still rooted within the people themselves by rational and realistic means. That is not to say I advocate the status quo, but instead, a moral pursuit to right the endless wrongs brought on by the evils of human nature, via an unintimidated, undaunted, unmitigated spirit of liberty and justice for all, rather then the destructive hypocrisy of your so-called "revolution."

"I may disagree with what you have to say, but I will defend, to the death, your right to say it".
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BOZG
Nov 29 2004, 08:16 AM
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Why any of you are on a board about Zack de la Rocha, I do not know. I have no illusions in him being a revolutionary but at least he spouts revolutionary rhetoric which none of you seem to comprehend.

I do not care what their intentions were, or whether they signed up to kill civilians or not, it's part of the job description. You don't become a carpenter if you're afraid of having an asthma attack. The may not agree with what their doing either but they're still doing it. "Just following orders" is not a justifiable excuse.

This argument of "supporting the soldiers but not the war" is ridiculous. If these soldiers refused to serve, there would be no war and no need to support them. What do you mean by "they're fighting because [others] won't"?

There's no need for them to go house to house, just drop a bomb on it, it's just as effective, possibly more. And in reality, marines are going house to house, reportedly looking for insurgents but then again, who's enemy or who's friend? Don't take any risks, eh.

Do you really think that if the US forces had mass support that the insurgents could manage to maintain themselves? It's the quite the opposiite, the insurgents are actually receiving quite broad support from the Iraqi people. Stop believing all this ridiculous bullshit that the insurgents are just remnants of the Ba'athists or Al'Qaeda supporters.

As for me being humane, I'm not the one pouring out tears for a man who's been part of an army thats killed hundreds of thousands or civilians and bombed hospitals.



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What is the Communist Party in a time of revolution? It is the revolutionary elite, powerfully organised, disciplined, obeying a consistent direction, marching towards a single clearly defined goal along the paths traced for it by a scientific doctrine. Being such a force, the party is the product of the necessity, that is the laws of history itself. That revolutionary elite which in a time of violence remains unorganized, undisciplined, without consistent direction and open to variable or contradictory impulses, is heading for suicide. No view at odds with this conclusion is possible. --- Victor Serge

Ireland, as distinct from her people, is nothing to me; and the man who is bubbling over with love and enthusiasm for "Ireland" and can yet pass unmoved through our streets and witness all the wrong and the suffering, the shame and the degradation wrought upon the people of Ireland -- yea, wrought by Irishmen upon Irish men and women, without burning to end it, is, in my opinion, a fraud and a liar in his heart, no matter how he loves that combination of chemical elements he is pleased to call Ireland. --- James Connolly
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seditious beats
Nov 29 2004, 09:14 AM
#12


El Broma ¡BOO!
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BOZG,

You really hurt your cause by being inconsiderate and disrespectful, no matter what your cause is, do you know that? What you're doing and saying here works against you. You're a reactionary because you're contradicting yourself. Going around pointing fingers and spitting on peoples graves and human emotion... what the heck is that, man? Yes, people are dying over there, but peoples children are dying over there, too. Based on what you've said, you must believe that people are born patriotic.

People here have different views on the fighting going on and the troops. You expect people to be shoved into a box and have the same ideas just because we listen to Rage Against The Machine? Everything's not so clear cut and categorized in thought: Either with you or against you. Doesn't work that way, I think you know that. I hope you know that.


QUOTE(BOZG @ Nov 29 2004, 10:16 AM)
As for me being humane, I'm not the one pouring out tears for a man who's been part of an army thats killed hundreds of thousands or civilians and bombed hospitals.
[right][snapback]145829[/snapback][/right]


But you're letting your anger blind the fact that you're still a human, and have also been desensitized. Scary huh? But you're doing it.
This was a marine that was hired by the military, but he was also very young and a friend to many.

This is a thread dedicated to someone close that was also lost to this farce. If you don't understand that, or even if you don't want to, Then go away, please.


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BOZG
Nov 29 2004, 09:33 AM
#13


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Take a look at my first post where I clearly stated that I did not want to see thousands of soldiers because I recognise why many of them are there but I don't see ignorance as an excuse. Regardless of the lies he went there on, of the economic reasons of him going, of the class he came from, he was a TRAINED KILLER. His job there was to kill in the name of US Imperialism, of US capitalism and for the sake of economic and strategic dominance in that region. You cannot forget that, human emotion or not.


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What is the Communist Party in a time of revolution? It is the revolutionary elite, powerfully organised, disciplined, obeying a consistent direction, marching towards a single clearly defined goal along the paths traced for it by a scientific doctrine. Being such a force, the party is the product of the necessity, that is the laws of history itself. That revolutionary elite which in a time of violence remains unorganized, undisciplined, without consistent direction and open to variable or contradictory impulses, is heading for suicide. No view at odds with this conclusion is possible. --- Victor Serge

Ireland, as distinct from her people, is nothing to me; and the man who is bubbling over with love and enthusiasm for "Ireland" and can yet pass unmoved through our streets and witness all the wrong and the suffering, the shame and the degradation wrought upon the people of Ireland -- yea, wrought by Irishmen upon Irish men and women, without burning to end it, is, in my opinion, a fraud and a liar in his heart, no matter how he loves that combination of chemical elements he is pleased to call Ireland. --- James Connolly
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BOZG
Nov 29 2004, 09:37 AM
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If you really want to discuss my psychology, feel free to but I'll let you into something, I feel no more real compassion for dead Iraqi civilians than I do for a dead US soldier, I'm not being emotionally biased towards anybody.


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What is the Communist Party in a time of revolution? It is the revolutionary elite, powerfully organised, disciplined, obeying a consistent direction, marching towards a single clearly defined goal along the paths traced for it by a scientific doctrine. Being such a force, the party is the product of the necessity, that is the laws of history itself. That revolutionary elite which in a time of violence remains unorganized, undisciplined, without consistent direction and open to variable or contradictory impulses, is heading for suicide. No view at odds with this conclusion is possible. --- Victor Serge

Ireland, as distinct from her people, is nothing to me; and the man who is bubbling over with love and enthusiasm for "Ireland" and can yet pass unmoved through our streets and witness all the wrong and the suffering, the shame and the degradation wrought upon the people of Ireland -- yea, wrought by Irishmen upon Irish men and women, without burning to end it, is, in my opinion, a fraud and a liar in his heart, no matter how he loves that combination of chemical elements he is pleased to call Ireland. --- James Connolly
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seditious beats
Nov 29 2004, 09:39 AM
#15


El Broma ¡BOO!
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Take your shit elsewhere, THAT's what I'm telling you. Start a thread in the politics forum if you feel so compelled to spout off, but have some respect.


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