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> What Is Beautiful?, Beyonces look. A comment n Rolling Stone
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zapatista
Feb 22 2004, 10:44 PM
#61


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almost sounds like the dark skinned black person is becoming a "minority" in their own race. sad.gif I'm not against interacial couples.. you love who you love... but the idea of breeding out a race intentionally... kind of makes me sick.. it doesn't seem right.. ya know.


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Moremi
Feb 22 2004, 10:46 PM
#62


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QUOTE (Sarah @ Feb 23 2004, 02:28 AM)
^ do u know if they make her look lighter? coz i swear, she looks very light skinned in that video...do they make her wear like body makeup two shades lighter or something...?

yeah i agree bout music videos...it's just getting a bit much.


but also, i was thinking today...beyonce doesnt look very typically black, but then again, what is a typical black? why is it typical? are we more likely to encounter a typical black person on the street than say a not so typical black person? maybe the idea of a typical black person was fed to us thru the media...?!

I've also wondered if it's the camera's or make up. All I know for sure is she doesn't look the way she used too. blink.gif Black people come in all colors, so I don't think there's one type that could be considered "typical." I've seen black people who actually look white, not because of anything they've done to alter their appearance but it's just how they are, through mixing. There's even people in Africa, who are natives and not mixed, that have a lighter complexion. But you're right, the media does have a lot to do with what we think of as black, and even Asian and "Hispanic."


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zapatista
Feb 22 2004, 10:49 PM
#63


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I think I might pick up that book Moremi.


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Sara
Feb 22 2004, 10:52 PM
#64


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yeah it could be cameras, maybe make up, thu, it would be so sad on her behalf to wear make up to make her look lighter...it doesnt make her any more beautiful in my eyes.

yeah see there's no "typical" black person u know? we are being told thru TV what is typical and what isnt...the notion of a typical black (or any typical race for that matter) is almost imagined...africans, wether americans or from africa all look different and diverse. like u said it also goes for other ethnic groups.

u know what else is interesting, is on TV, when we see programmes like Law and Order or Third Watch or The Guardian, it's funny how they hand pick the black ppl that r playing the criminal-on-today's-episode, they are quite dark, with big lips, almost ur "typical black person" u know?


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Moremi
Feb 22 2004, 11:10 PM
#65


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QUOTE (zapatista @ Feb 23 2004, 02:49 AM)
I think I might pick up that book Moremi.

Soul On Ice is a great book and it gives a painfully honest view on why some black men only date white women. There's black women with that mind set also. Many of the reasons he states in his book, I also heard growing up, in my teens, from guys who were actually cruel enough and stupid enough to have such discussions in my presence. I would post more but it's so harsh and I don't want to offend anybody. We might have to move this to the hot seat, you know. I love dark skinned men but I've noticed, the ones that are African American usually prefer light skinned black women or white girls. Most likely for the same reasons your friend told you. I don't hold a grudge or any bitterness for it. I understand why it happens. This society is very hostile towards black people and through slavery, segregation, the media, the educational system, we've been taught to hate ourselves. There are so many forces working against you, if you can get to a place where you truly love who you are, consider yourself blessed. You beat the odds.


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Casbah
Feb 23 2004, 12:42 AM
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i cant bring all my thoughts together on this subject either, but its one ive been debating in my head for awhile..........honestly, im kinda scared to talk about it cus im afraid im gonna get words put in my mouth or be misinterpreted.......

im white, but few of the girls ive dated so far are white and i cannot think of a possible explanation as to why this is, "you love who you love" is true, but alot of these posts indicate the possibility that something else influences this


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Sara
Feb 23 2004, 12:56 AM
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QUOTE (casbah rebel @ Feb 23 2004, 09:42 PM)
i cant bring all my thoughts together on this subject either, but its one ive been debating in my head for awhile..........honestly, im kinda scared to talk about it cus im afraid im gonna get words put in my mouth or be misinterpreted.......

im white, but few of the girls ive dated so far are white and i cannot think of a possible explanation as to why this is, "you love who you love" is true, but alot of these posts indicate the possibility that something else influences this

u wont offend anyone, unless u say offensive things...


white dating white black dating black, or ppl of different races dating is not the issue...the discussion here is really bout self hate...when a black person dates a white person it really could be that u love who u love, but zap gave a specific example, a black person who chooses to date white girls coz he wants to have half white kids coz he believes they'll have better chances in life than those who r fully black u know?


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Guerrilla
Feb 23 2004, 03:58 AM
#68


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QUOTE (joemomma86 @ Feb 20 2004, 03:10 AM)
fuck that stuckup bitch.

OMG! He called a women a bitch! where are the flammes! he must be sexist! fuckin pig!


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Moremi
Feb 23 2004, 08:28 AM
#69


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QUOTE (Sarah @ Feb 23 2004, 04:56 AM)
QUOTE (casbah rebel @ Feb 23 2004, 09:42 PM)
i cant bring all my thoughts together on this subject either, but its one ive been debating in my head for awhile..........honestly, im kinda scared to talk about it cus im afraid im gonna get words put in my mouth or be misinterpreted.......

im white, but few of the girls ive dated so far are white and i cannot think of a possible explanation as to why this is, "you love who you love" is true, but alot of these posts indicate the possibility that something else influences this

u wont offend anyone, unless u say offensive things...


white dating white black dating black, or ppl of different races dating is not the issue...the discussion here is really bout self hate...when a black person dates a white person it really could be that u love who u love, but zap gave a specific example, a black person who chooses to date white girls coz he wants to have half white kids coz he believes they'll have better chances in life than those who r fully black u know?

Well, it depends on what casabah rebel is talking about. Is he dating mostly outside of his race because he finds women that are not his race more attractive? Is he doing it out of some myth that a certain type of woman behaves differently because of her race? The discussion is also about beauty and why we find certain races or skin colors more beautiful or appealing than others. I would like to know why.


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Casbah
Feb 23 2004, 08:43 AM
#70


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its not a behavior thing at all, i hear people talk like that and it just sounds ridiculous, like theyre talking about animals or something...........


--my computer is being stupid and wont let me copy and paste text so i cant respond to quotes, so its going to be difficult for me to participate in this conversation--


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ozorage
Feb 23 2004, 08:44 AM
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aahh! shocking.gif this discussion goes by so fast...

ok. this just popped into my head...

anyone watch America's Next Top Model? (or am i the only loser... tongue.gif ... ) anyhoo...

in one episode they had a photo shoot in which they were to become famous celebreties (Salma Hayek, Marilyn Monroe, Angelina Jolie...Billie Holiday...) ... anyway... this girl, Xiomara was transformed into Grace Jones and she wasn't feelin it... Tyra Banks made this statement about black women not wanting to become darker... Tyra herself is very light-skinned... anyway... as far as i can recall Xiomara never said she had a problem becoming darker... she just said she didn't/couldn't invision herself as Grace Jones...aaaaaanyway...

interesting picture...
user posted image


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Moremi
Feb 23 2004, 11:31 AM
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^ There was a guy who was really. famous for that. I think he passed away though. He has a book where he transformed Kina, Martha Stewart and other celebs into Tina Turner, Marylin Monroe and others. Anyway, I'm not surprised she wasn't feeling it...and Tyra's statement is right but she also plays into that image thing too. Growing up, my peers, who were mostly African American, would tell me not to stay out in the sun too long because I would get too dark. The girls especially would avoid going out in the sun because they didn't want their skin to darken. Most of the people in my family are dark skinned, so their statements were rather telling of how they really felt about me and themselves really.


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Moremi
Feb 23 2004, 11:33 AM
#73


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QUOTE (casbah rebel @ Feb 23 2004, 12:43 PM)
its not a behavior thing at all, i hear people talk like that and it just sounds ridiculous, like theyre talking about animals or something...........


--my computer is being stupid and wont let me copy and paste text so i cant respond to quotes, so its going to be difficult for me to participate in this conversation--

Can you explain what you meant then?

Don't worry about the cop/paste thing. We'll be able to follow your convo.


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Moremi
Feb 23 2004, 12:48 PM
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I was wondering, do Mexicans, Cuban's, Puerto Ricans, etc., deal with similar issues. I remember watching a special on HBO a few years ago that featured a girl from Puerto Rico. She talked about how growing up she felt pressured to straighten her hair but as she got older she felt she was being conditioned to look more European and stopped doing that.

Here's another passage from the book, "Soul On Ice" by Eldridge Cleaver, which by the way is on the Rage Against The Machine reading list. It was one of the books that appeared in the photograph for Evil Empire. I often wonder who selected this one ... Zack? Tom? hmm.gif This passage deals with self-hatred. Cleaver has been criticize for some to things he wrote but I don't think it's that different from things that Malcolm X or authors like Alice Walker have said. His approach is just very raw. This isn't Cleaver talking but it's from a conversation he had with another black man. I apologize if anyone is offended by this but I would like your thoughts.
QUOTE
"Black women take kindness for weakness. Leave them the least little opening and they will put you on the cross. I hate a black bitch. You can't trust them like you can trust white women, and if you try to, they won't appreciate it and they won't know how to act. It would be like trying to pamper a cobra. Anyway, every black woman secretly hates black men. Secretly, they all love white men -- some of them will tell you so to your face, the others will tell you by their deeds and actions. Haven't you ever noticed that just as soon as a black woman becomes successful she marries a white man? I'm going by what I know. I know one black bitch who always says that there ain't nothing a black man can do for her except leave her alone or bring her a message from, or carry a message to, a white man.

"There is no love left between a black man and a black woman. Take me, for instance. I love a white women and hate black women. It's just in me, so deep that I don't even try to get it out of me anymore. I'd jump over ten nigger bitches just to get one white woman. Ain't no such thing as an ugly white woman. A white woman is beautiful even if she's baldheaded and only has one tooth...It's not just the fact that she's a woman that I love; I love her skin, her soft, smooth white skin. I just like to lick her white skin as if sweet, fresh honey flows from her pores, and just to touch her long, soft, silky hair. There's a softness about a white woman, something delicate and soft inside her. But a nigger bitch seems to be full steel, granite-hard and resisting, not soft and submissive like a white woman. Ain't nothing more beautiful than a white woman's hair being blown by the wind. The white woman is more than woman to me...She's like a goddes, a symbol. My love for her is religous and beyond fulfillment. I worship her. I love a white woman's dirty drawers.

"Sometimes I think that the way I feel about white women, I must have inherited from my father and his father and his father's father -- as far back as you can go into slavery. I must have inherited from all those black men part of my desire for the white woman, because I have more love for her than one man should have. Yes, I want all the white women that they wanted but were never able to get. They passed on their desire to me, they must have; desire for the white woman is like a cancer eating my heart out and devouring my brain. In my dreams I see white women jumping over a fence like dainty little lambs, and every time one of them jumps over, her hair just catches the breeze and spalys out behind her like a man on a Palomino stallino: blondes, redheads, brunettes, strawberry blondes, dirty blondes, drugstore blondes, platinum blondes -- all of them. They are the things in my nightmares. Does all this sound like I'm making it up, youngblood?

"Well, I've thought about it for years. You have to try to understand what's bugging you, you know. But really, I don't believe that I understand anything about anything when you get right down to it. But I'm stuck with myself and I accept my own thoughts about things. For instance, I don't now just how it works, I mean I can't analyze it, but I know that the white man made the black woman the symbol of slavery and the white woman the symbol of freedom. Every time I embrace a black woman I'm embracing slavery, and when I put my arms around a white woman, well, I'm hugging freedom. The white man forbade me to have the white woman on pain of death. Literally, if I touched a white woman it would cost me my life. Men die for freedom, but black men die for white women, who are the symbol of freedom. That was the white man's will, and as long as he has the power to enforce his will upon me, force me to submit to his will in this instance or in any other, I will not be free. I will not be free until the day I can have a white woman in my bed and a white man minds his own business. Until that day comes, my entire existence is tainted, poisoned, and I will still be a slave -- and so will the white woman.

"You may not believe this ... when I off a nigger bitch, I close my eyes and concentrate real hard, and pretty soon I get to believing that I'm riding one of them bucking blondes. I tell you the truth, that's the only way I can bust my nuts with a black bitch, to close my eyes and pretend that she is Jezebel. If I was to look down and see a black bitch underneath me or if my hand happened to feel her nappy her, that would be the end, it would be all over. I might as well get on up and split because I wouldn't be able to get anything down, even if I piled her all night long. Any black man who says he don't dig Jezebel is a goddamn liar. I believe that if a leader wanted to unite the Negroes in solid unity he could do so very easily. All he'd have to do is promise every black man a white woman and every black woman a white man. He would have so many followers he wouldn't know what to do with them all. Believe me."




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ozorage
Feb 23 2004, 08:00 PM
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QUOTE (Moremi @ Feb 23 2004, 03:48 PM)
I was wondering, do Mexicans, Cuban's, Puerto Ricans, etc., deal with similar issues. I remember watching a special on HBO a few years ago that featured a girl from Puerto Rico. She talked about how growing up she felt pressured to straighten her hair but as she got older she felt she was being conditioned to look more European and stopped doing that.

there was a discussion this afternoon in one of my classes....we were listening to this song by a jibaro singer, Ramito, called Nuestra Sangre(Our Blood)... the song is meant to tell the story of Puerto Ricans... where they came from... from the Tainos, Spanish, and Africans... however, it's all romantized and shit... as far as talking about love rather than rape...
...and then the last decima in the song...goes like this...

QUOTE
Between Africa, where the sun scorches
And Siberia, with its frozen lava,
Amongst opulence and misery
My race was established.
Where it is not rare to see married
A white man and a brown-skinned woman
Or, a northern blonde
with dark prestigious man,
Because that is rightly the vestige
Of the Puerto Rican race


somebody pointed out how that stanza was blatanly racist... in order for it to be "RIGHTLY the vestige of the Puerto Rican race" there must be some white blood in the mix.....from that people started going off... talking about all kinds of sayings... (the girl who pointed this out is a white Puerto Rican... not sure there's any importance in that... but just in case you had a preconcieved notion of who brought it up..)

...How their familia is constantly telling them "No dañen la raza" ... telling them NOT to mix with anyone black because somehow that would be messing up the "race" ...

...and this, which i've heard a million times... mothers telling their daughters not to marry (have kids with) a black guy cuz they don't wanna be combing nappy hair... i

...there was another saying i can't remember... something about "El Negro being under the bed" dunno.gif i dont' know the saying so i'm almost sure that's not the right saying but that's the point... basically "we realize the African blood is there (obviously) but we don't talk about that that unless it's beneficial to us" .... as far as accrediting the booty or booty-shaking ablility and such.... anyway, then that went on to the whole placement of shit... nobody can deny the Taino, Spanish, and African blood that runs in P.R. however people seem to place the Spanish above the Taino and the Taino above the African...

...i need to find the image the Profe was talking about... i think it was the Instituo Puertorriqueño (but i'm not sure of where.. maybe Spanish Harlem...)... anyway... in it there are three images in their logo... The Spaniard, The Taino, and the African... however... we see the Spaniard in the front standing proud holding a book or something.. then we have the naked Taino holding corn or something, and then we have a naked slave in chains on either side of white man...

...people still hold onto this...the Eurocentric images that have been pounded into their heads... bla bla bla... you know...

....ok. so that was class.....

...



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