Zack de la Rocha Network Forum _ .:: "the hot seat" ::. _ What Is Beautiful?

: Moremi Feb 19 2004, 04:24 PM

An excerpt from a Rolling Stone article on Beyonce:

QUOTE
Beyonce has become a crossover sex symbol a la Halle Berry, a black girl who's not so overwhelmingly Nubian that white people don't appreciate her beauty. She's what Janet Jackson used to be: the tasteful sex symbol who's giving you R&B-flavored pop hits and state-of-the-art videos, tours and movies, too.


user posted image

[ http://www.rollingstone.com/features/coverstory/featuregen.asp?pid=2785 ]

I think Beyonce is beautiful but I also think there's a lot of truth in what this writer is saying. Surprised Rolling Stone printed it though.

: Casbah Feb 19 2004, 06:08 PM

i really think beauty goes beyond all ethnicities, to the point where that doesnt even matter anymore, as cliched and mushy/corny as i must sound saying that

: joemomma86 Feb 19 2004, 07:10 PM

fuck that stuckup bitch.

: CUJO Feb 19 2004, 08:10 PM

QUOTE (joemomma86 @ Feb 20 2004, 03:10 AM)
fuck that stuckup bitch.

god, i hate her. why does everybody like her?

: nerve Feb 19 2004, 08:38 PM

QUOTE (Moremi @ Feb 20 2004, 12:24 AM)
Surprised Rolling Stone printed it though.

Rolling Stones writers are $hit...

: Underground Feb 19 2004, 08:42 PM

show me a white guy who doesn't dig Naomi Campbell. She is very dark.

: Moremi Feb 19 2004, 09:32 PM

QUOTE (joemomma86 @ Feb 19 2004, 11:10 PM)
fuck that stuckup bitch.

god, I don't get some of you guys...and why you refer to women that way!

: Moremi Feb 19 2004, 09:43 PM

QUOTE (Underground @ Feb 20 2004, 12:42 AM)
show me a white guy who doesn't dig Naomi Campbell. She is very dark.

I know there are plenty of white guys that find dark skinned black women attractive but it's the image of the light skinned, European looking black woman that's upheld in this society. Naomi isn't what the writer had in mind when he used the word "Nubian". I agree she's pretty but would she be as beautiful if she had a broader nose and lost the weave. You don't see very many black women who fit that description gracing the cover of magazines. That still seems to be a taboo?

: rev79 Feb 19 2004, 10:53 PM

Beyonce is just crazy bangin'..damn she's so sexy. And I've certainly seen no evidence of her being 'stuckup' either..

: Metzli Feb 19 2004, 11:18 PM

I totally agree and understand you about the european/white look.. she doesn't look black, that's for sure.....

: Moremi Feb 20 2004, 12:05 AM

I don't know if it's the blonde hair or what, but in some of the recent photos I've seen, I didn't even recognize her ... then I'm like oh wait a minute, that's Beyonce blink.gif

: Metzli Feb 20 2004, 12:21 AM

she looks (whiter) everytime I see her..laughing.gif

: thom (himself) Feb 20 2004, 02:24 AM

jackson syndrome?

i can understand why beyonce is found attractive but i personally dont think she is anything special. but that just my own personal taste.


: joemomma86 Feb 20 2004, 03:39 AM

my correction, fuck that slutty looking bitch

: Moremi Feb 20 2004, 05:40 AM

QUOTE (Rage-Babe @ Feb 20 2004, 04:21 AM)
she looks (whiter) everytime I see her..laughing.gif

I know what you mean laugh.gif Maybe it's not the hair...because she's been blonde in the past but you could still tell she was black. But recently.... blink.gif

dunno.gif

: Moremi Feb 20 2004, 05:58 AM

QUOTE (thom (himself) @ Feb 20 2004, 06:24 AM)
jackson syndrome?

i can understand why beyonce is found attractive but i personally dont think she is anything special. but that just my own personal taste.

No more falling off your skateboard, huh? smile2.gif

: Vìcmælon Feb 20 2004, 06:01 AM

QUOTE
a black girl who's not so overwhelmingly Nubian that white people don't appreciate her beauty.


What the f*ck? Non-whites are somehow genetically predisposed to be able to truly appreciate the beauty of some black women???

What a crock of f*cking shit.

Vìc

: Moremi Feb 20 2004, 06:11 AM

I don't think he meant it like that but I get your point.

A lot of black people (not all) can appreciate the various differences in our race, in skin color, hair texture, facial features, even body types - in our media. But usually, when you see a black woman cross over and considered a sex symbol by whites, more often than not, she looks kind of white.

: Sulley Feb 20 2004, 07:12 AM

i don't have a problem with beyonce. But then again i don't watch too much tv so i don't know how 'stuckup' some of you guys say she is. I think she is really beautiful and has a great talent.


but she did suck in austin powers 3 tongue.gif

: Anarchy in the U.K Feb 20 2004, 09:30 AM

QUOTE
my correction, fuck that slutty looking bitch

Do you know how ignorant that comment makes you look? You don't give any reason why you don't like her and how the hell is she slutty? Don't just make dumb comments like that without giving a reason to why you think that.
Also beyonce is very attractive and talented

: nerve Feb 20 2004, 09:54 AM

Queen Latifah is on "Cover Girl" commercials aswell, i dont know why though, she's not sexy at all

: Vespertine Feb 20 2004, 10:51 AM

QUOTE (nerve @ Feb 20 2004, 09:54 AM)
Queen Latifah is on "Cover Girl" commercials aswell, i dont know why though, she's not sexy at all

I think she's beautiful unsure.gif

: seditious beats Feb 20 2004, 11:01 AM

^^^Palabra. I agree.

: cosmic Feb 20 2004, 11:11 AM

this is an interesting topic. I've heard countless R&B songs that refer to thier women, real or not, as "caramel", "creamy" or other description that entails a "light" complexion(even visually in videos). Hardly ever is the description of a "dark" skin used. So, is this also an issue within the black culture too?

: Ascarny Feb 20 2004, 12:55 PM

QUOTE (joemomma86 @ Feb 20 2004, 01:39 PM)
fuck that slutty looking bitch

I'd love to!

She's so beautiful smile.gif

: Underground Feb 20 2004, 12:56 PM

QUOTE
this is an interesting topic. I've heard countless R&B songs that refer to thier women, real or not, as "caramel", "creamy" or other description that entails a "light" complexion(even visually in videos). Hardly ever is the description of a "dark" skin used. So, is this also an issue within the black culture too?

but when do white guys sing about "white" skinned women???

: Moremi Feb 20 2004, 03:12 PM

QUOTE (nerve @ Feb 20 2004, 01:54 PM)
Queen Latifah is on "Cover Girl" commercials aswell, i dont know why though, she's not sexy at all

I'm not trying to be rude but I'm not sure what your point is. huh.gif Latifah is also light skinned you know. The thing that is really different about her appearance is that she is full figured.

Also, I agree with the others, she is gorgeous and one of my favorite rappers tongue.gif

: Moremi Feb 20 2004, 03:40 PM

QUOTE (cosmic @ Feb 20 2004, 03:11 PM)
this is an interesting topic.  I've heard countless R&B songs that refer to thier women, real or not,  as "caramel", "creamy" or other description that entails a "light" complexion(even visually in videos).  Hardly ever is the description of a "dark" skin used.  So, is this also an issue within the black culture too?

Yes, and that's been discussed and written about in great length by many African American authors and scholars. It's a fact that black people were made to feel ashamed of their appearance, first through slavery and colonialism then through television, film and the educational system. There's no denying that. Some of us are still stuck in that way of thinking and we're the ones that are going to have to change that. There are rappers that bring up these issues in their music and videos - Mos Def, Kweli, Dead Prez... I don't think blacks are the only ones whose self worth is damaged by living in a society that says blonde hair and blue eyes is the ideal. Asian women have said they've been effected by this and probably other "minorities" as well.

: Moremi Feb 20 2004, 03:44 PM

QUOTE (Underground @ Feb 20 2004, 04:56 PM)
QUOTE
this is an interesting topic. I've heard countless R&B songs that refer to thier women, real or not, as "caramel", "creamy" or other description that entails a "light" complexion(even visually in videos). Hardly ever is the description of a "dark" skin used. So, is this also an issue within the black culture too?

but when do white guys sing about "white" skinned women???

White guys do sing about white women and there's nothing wrong with that. They might not come out and say white but they use words like "blue eyes", "porcelain skin", "golden hair", which brings to mind images of a white woman. And the women in their videos usually fit that description too.

: Moremi Feb 20 2004, 04:08 PM

QUOTE (Anarchy in the U.K @ Feb 20 2004, 01:30 PM)
QUOTE
my correction, fuck that slutty looking bitch

Do you know how ignorant that comment makes you look? You don't give any reason why you don't like her and how the hell is she slutty? Don't just make dumb comments like that without giving a reason to why you think that.
Also beyonce is very attractive and talented

Exactly smile.gif

: Casbah Feb 20 2004, 08:36 PM

im almost embarassed to say shes got a great voice since im not too into most pop music

: Vìcmælon Feb 21 2004, 05:39 AM

Good point cosmic.

Vìc

: Moremi Feb 21 2004, 06:04 AM

^ How so?

Why do I feel like people are missing the point? This is not about whether or not Beyonce is beautiful. She obviously is. And it's not about what a few rappers put in their videos or songs. Do you guys realize that blacks have been demonized and compared to animals in the media for years. The closer you were to looking white the better off you were. Our standard of beauty has been greatly influenced by what whites forced upon us. Rather than dealing with the cause, you're dealing with the effect.

Watch the movie Bamboozled by Spike Lee. It goes into some of these issues. And the Public Enemy song "Burn Hollywood Burn", that Zack helped remake for the movie, also very good.

EDIT: There are few books on the RATM reading list that go into these issues also.

: Underground Feb 21 2004, 09:04 AM

QUOTE (Moremi @ Feb 20 2004, 11:44 PM)
QUOTE (Underground @ Feb 20 2004, 04:56 PM)
QUOTE
this is an interesting topic. I've heard countless R&B songs that refer to thier women, real or not, as "caramel", "creamy" or other description that entails a "light" complexion(even visually in videos). Hardly ever is the description of a "dark" skin used. So, is this also an issue within the black culture too?

but when do white guys sing about "white" skinned women???

White guys do sing about white women and there's nothing wrong with that. They might not come out and say white but they use words like "blue eyes", "porcelain skin", "golden hair", which brings to mind images of a white woman. And the women in their videos usually fit that description too.

it is black women in videos by black guys also

: Moremi Feb 21 2004, 09:16 AM

QUOTE (Underground @ Feb 21 2004, 01:04 PM)
QUOTE (Moremi @ Feb 20 2004, 11:44 PM)
QUOTE (Underground @ Feb 20 2004, 04:56 PM)
QUOTE
this is an interesting topic. I've heard countless R&B songs that refer to thier women, real or not, as "caramel", "creamy" or other description that entails a "light" complexion(even visually in videos). Hardly ever is the description of a "dark" skin used. So, is this also an issue within the black culture too?

but when do white guys sing about "white" skinned women???

White guys do sing about white women and there's nothing wrong with that. They might not come out and say white but they use words like "blue eyes", "porcelain skin", "golden hair", which brings to mind images of a white woman. And the women in their videos usually fit that description too.

it is black women in videos by black guys also

Yeah, did anyone say they didn't? What are you getting at? unsure.gif

: Underground Feb 21 2004, 09:23 AM

QUOTE (Moremi @ Feb 21 2004, 05:16 PM)
QUOTE (Underground @ Feb 21 2004, 01:04 PM)
QUOTE (Moremi @ Feb 20 2004, 11:44 PM)
QUOTE (Underground @ Feb 20 2004, 04:56 PM)
QUOTE
this is an interesting topic. I've heard countless R&B songs that refer to thier women, real or not, as "caramel", "creamy" or other description that entails a "light" complexion(even visually in videos). Hardly ever is the description of a "dark" skin used. So, is this also an issue within the black culture too?

but when do white guys sing about "white" skinned women???

White guys do sing about white women and there's nothing wrong with that. They might not come out and say white but they use words like "blue eyes", "porcelain skin", "golden hair", which brings to mind images of a white woman. And the women in their videos usually fit that description too.

it is black women in videos by black guys also

Yeah, did anyone say they didn't? What are you getting at? unsure.gif

you pointed out that white guys have white women in their videos, so that doesn't prove anything given that black guys have black women in theirs

: Moremi Feb 21 2004, 09:29 AM

QUOTE (Underground @ Feb 21 2004, 01:23 PM)
you pointed out that white guys have white women in their videos, so that doesn't prove anything given that black guys have black women in theirs

No, you asked "when do white guys sing about white women?"...as if somehow they don't. So I listed some examples for you, to show you they do. What I don't get is, what does any of this have to with this discussion? What is your point?

: Underground Feb 21 2004, 09:34 AM

QUOTE (Moremi @ Feb 21 2004, 05:29 PM)
QUOTE (Underground @ Feb 21 2004, 01:23 PM)
you pointed out that white guys have white women in their videos, so that doesn't prove anything given that black guys have black women in theirs

No, you asked "when do white guys sing about white women?"...as if somehow they don't. So I listed some examples for you, to show you they do. What I don't get is, what does any of this have to with this discussion? What is your point?

it has everything to do with it, the previous discusssion was how black guys don't sing about black women. so i asked the question if white guys do.

it is a perfectly logical and important thing to ask, given the prior discussion

: Moremi Feb 21 2004, 09:43 AM

QUOTE (Underground @ Feb 21 2004, 01:34 PM)
QUOTE (Moremi @ Feb 21 2004, 05:29 PM)
QUOTE (Underground @ Feb 21 2004, 01:23 PM)
you pointed out that white guys have white women in their videos, so that doesn't prove anything given that black guys have black women in theirs

No, you asked "when do white guys sing about white women?"...as if somehow they don't. So I listed some examples for you, to show you they do. What I don't get is, what does any of this have to with this discussion? What is your point?

it has everything to do with it, the previous discusssion was how black guys don't sing about black women. so i asked the question if white guys do.

it is a perfectly logical and important thing to ask, given the prior discussion

That's not the point cosmic was making. Or at least that was not my understanding of his post. Cosmic was saying that many of the women that are spoken of in rap music or shown in videos are light skinned black women. He was pointing out, that the problem of the media mostly recognizing light skinned black women also exists in the black communitiy. Which is what the writer of that article was getting at - that white people cannot appreciate dark skinned women. He wasn't saying that black men don't sing about black women. I agree with cosmics point but I think it's the effect of living in a society where the standard of beauty is completely opposite of what you see in the mirror.

: Underground Feb 21 2004, 09:57 AM

QUOTE (Moremi @ Feb 21 2004, 05:43 PM)
QUOTE (Underground @ Feb 21 2004, 01:34 PM)
QUOTE (Moremi @ Feb 21 2004, 05:29 PM)
QUOTE (Underground @ Feb 21 2004, 01:23 PM)
you pointed out that white guys have white women in their videos, so that doesn't prove anything given that black guys have black women in theirs

No, you asked "when do white guys sing about white women?"...as if somehow they don't. So I listed some examples for you, to show you they do. What I don't get is, what does any of this have to with this discussion? What is your point?

it has everything to do with it, the previous discusssion was how black guys don't sing about black women. so i asked the question if white guys do.

it is a perfectly logical and important thing to ask, given the prior discussion

That's not the point cosmic was making. Or at least that was not my understanding of his post. Cosmic was saying that many of the women that are spoken of in rap music or shown in videos are light skinned black women. He was pointing out, that the problem of the media mostly recognizing light skinned black women also exists in the black communitiy. Which is what the writer of that article was getting at - that white people cannot appreciate dark skinned women. He wasn't saying that black men don't sing about black women. I agree with cosmics point but as I already said, there are reasons for that which go back to what the author of that article was saying.

but clearly the important issue to simultaneously address is whether white guys only show or describe particularly white women.

otherwise it is pointless

: Moremi Feb 21 2004, 10:10 AM

QUOTE (Underground @ Feb 21 2004, 01:57 PM)
but clearly the important issue to simultaneously address is whether white guys only show or describe particularly white women.

otherwise it is pointless

I edited my last post during your reply but anyway...

I think that white women of all shades, hair type and eye color are well represented in media. But black women who are embraced by the mainstream and viewed as beautiful usually look more European. That's the issue.

: Moremi Feb 21 2004, 03:36 PM

Let me try to explain it another way. This might not be the perfect analogy but I'll try. Take for example how in recent years there have been many organizations and doctors that complained about the problems with self image that are created in young girls through media. The media has a very strong influence on what we believe and think of as beauty. Many girls look to the size 2 super models as role models and believe that's what all men want them to look like. As a result very many women and young girls have eating disorders which has lead several groups to ask for more diversity in the media. This way girls can develop a healthier self image and stop ruining their bodies. What you have to understand is, it's not about being accepted or validated by another group. It's about diversity and reflecting what this world really looks like and not what a few people want it to look like. Through the media, what's mostly being reflected are the interests of powerful white men. In the past, and even now, the media has been used to elevate a European standard of beauty. It's not always as blatant as it used to be but it's still there. Sometimes, it's so obviously deliberate and other times I think people are acting out what they have been taught for so long. But the fact that what we see in the media and what passes as beautiful in this society, doesn't stray very far from European, says a lot about how little we've come in terms of being able to appreciate our differences. Anyway, I think I'm done with this discussion. I feel like I'm speaking another language. Thanks for your feedback. smile.gif

: zapatista Feb 21 2004, 05:15 PM

I think that's a great analogy... and one most people can relate to. Black women have been pressured to fit this european standard of beauty... more then most. but that even reaches to other minoritys to.. that's why we dye our hair and bla bla bla... meh.. screw that.. I'm not doing that anymore... great topic Moremi

: Sara Feb 22 2004, 01:23 AM

that's exactly what it is. it's a mechanism of control. the dominant culture in the US, is the anglo-american, and everyone else is a minority, and representing the white on TV more than any other ethinicity reflects that who is in power is the white, they r superiour, they r beautiful and for us to be beautiful we gotta look like them. "us" and "them" are very distinguished.

beyonce is presented as a "hip hop princess" even thu she sings pop really...her music is described as hip hop, coz she's black, but she's she is being presented to us as a white girl...her hair is so blonde, and straight, even when it's curly it looks anglo-american, her skin like u said is light...and this is the way, she is "safe" to be put on TV extensively coz she doesnt threaten the american ideas of beauty. neither does noami campbell for that matter, not with her blue eyes and straight hair. they r safe coz they don't look very black. same goes for asians on TV, they really dont look very "asian" some of them look like they come from mixed ethnic backgrounds. same goes for J Lo.

There is nothing wrong with that, the only problem is, most of the time, this is all we see. it's a problem when people start buying into that crap, that's dangerous, we need to understand our differences and appreciate it, but that cant happen with the way things are today, the dominant culture would be very threatened by this. the media today reflects cultural imperialism and um a lot of hemoginizing u know, trying to blend us all in, under one culture and one value system. there can be no change when we still have the lovely pop stars flooding the TV screens, coz making more money is more important than preserving one's culture.

a while ago, some guy posted here accusing beyonce of trying to be white and he got trashed for it...come to think of it, i kinda agree. can she not see that she's being marketed as a brown "white girl"? i always knew she was being presented as white, it only just hit me, that she could've just said No.

i am so sorry if i repeated material and i am sorry for rambling...i just had to share my view on this smile.gif

: Moremi Feb 22 2004, 10:05 AM

Thank you for your responses zap and Sarah clap2.gif

Even with her blonde hair in Destiny's Child or in the Hip Hopera - Carmen, that she did with Mos Def, Beyonce still came off to me as a black girl who identified with her people. But there's no doubt that her cross over success is in large part due to her look. Is she presenting herself that way because she's trying to be white or is she doing it because she knows that's what sells? It's not always true that black women who straighten or dye their hair are trying to be white. There are so many black women who are proud of their race and heritage who straighten their hair for a number of reasons that have nothing to do with wanting to be white. For example, Betty Shabazz, the wife of Malcolm X, straightened her hair. There's also many black women who sport natural hair do's like dread locks or fros who dye their hair. The way you wear your hair is not always a reflection of how you feel about your culture. While I don't agree with the blonde hair or weaves, I try to look at a person's situation for what it is. I don't think Beyonce wants to be white but I do think she's doing it because it helps her appeal to a larger audience. As you said, it's about making money. I think it's sad and irresponsible that so many entertainers play into this. I know we all have to make a living and the profession they have chosen for themselves is not very open minded or accepting of people who don't look European. But I think people of color are going to have to be the ones to change this. If we can't be ourselves, even if it means we might sell less records, no one is ever going to accept us for what we are.

I didn't know Naomi Campbell wore blue contacts! That's a damn shame ermm.gif

: Metzli Feb 22 2004, 03:06 PM

this has been a really interesting topic, i agree with all you, Moremi, Sarah and Zapatista.. I just can't articulate my thoughts right now... so yeah.. But I agree.. completely!!

: Moremi Feb 22 2004, 09:19 PM

^ I understood where you were coming from. It's a frustrating topic smile.gif

: Sara Feb 22 2004, 09:28 PM

hey moremi wavenew.gif

let me say that again, when i mentioned beyonce's hair, being blonde and straight, i didnt so much mean that she wants to be white, in the sense that she hates being black, but what i meant was, there is an ideal out there, and that ideal is white girl with straight blonde hair, sure we get the brunettes and red heads, but let's get real, "blondes have more fun". beyonce goes blonde not because she hates being black, but because she's buying into that idealogy, that blonde is beautiful. we all want to look good, but when we go straighten our hair or go blonde, we do it to look good, because we r told that this is looking good, u know what im trying to say? it's not self-hate, it's just, we buy into things, we believe these notions and ideas bout beauty. it's not that she hates being black or she feels a certain way bout her colour or culture, it's that she's been raised watching racist media, it's so subtle and sneaky and sometimes we fall for things almost unaware of it.

sure we all choose to do what we want with our hair, but how much of a choice does one have, when they want to look good so they go blonde, i mean we r being told certain things, we grow up learning certain things that greatly affect our choices, and so the concept of choice is not longer a neutral abstract thing u know?

but i agree, if we dont make the change, who will?

sorry i ramble too much laugh.gif

ps- hey Zap, so ur not gonna go blonde this season? u really suit it smile2.gif

: zapatista Feb 22 2004, 09:36 PM

QUOTE (Sarah @ Feb 23 2004, 12:28 AM)
ps- hey Zap, so ur not gonna go blonde this season? u really suit it smile2.gif

yea... I'm a hot chica with blond hair.. I know I know.. rolleyes.gif

laugh.gif

I look fine with brown hair to tho! tongue.gif

I have something else to add to this discussion tho... I was talking to a friend of mine who only dates white women.. and I asked him about it.. ya know.. like.. why do you ALWAYS date white women.. ya know.. just wondering.. and he was telling me that.. if he has mixed kids they will have an easier life and all this... how do you think more and more mixed children and mixed people come in to play in this growing shift toward a certain look? unsure.gif

: Sara Feb 22 2004, 09:42 PM

oh i was just teasing coz u said u wont go blonde again, and well, i highly doubt it laugh.gif


i guess he means his kids will have a better chance in life being half white? i dont personally understand where he's coming from, coz kids of mixed heritege tend to be picked on for being "half-caste" and they tend to be denied from both mother's ethnic group and the father's ethnic group. of course there r exceptions and maybe things will change when he has kids...


aaannnywaay this is off topic scratch.gif

: ozorage Feb 22 2004, 09:48 PM

somewhat random but on topic...
this is what popped into my head while going through this thread...

QUOTE
If you're white you're all right
If you're yellow you're mellow
If you're brown stick around
If you're black get back.


don't think there's much more i can add to this other than quoting you guys and simply restating what y'all already said..... so basically, like Rage-Babe...i agree.


: Moremi Feb 22 2004, 10:01 PM

Hey Sarah,

Ok, because when you said she was trying to be white, I took that to mean she wasn't proud of who she was. But I agree some people do it for the reasons you've stated. Lil Kim is a perfect example of that. She has even said that she dyes her hair and wears contacts because all her life she's been told that blonde hair and blue eyes is what's beautiful. She also refers to herself as a black barbie. blink.gif I suspect that Beyonce is smarter than that and she's just "playing the game", like her fiance and advisor, Jay Z, doing whatever it takes to make the money. I think some entertainers make decisions regarding their appearance because they know it will get them further and not because they actually think that's what's beautiful. Same with the working class. I know people who want to go natural or lock their hair but can't because it's not acceptable in their profession. I don't know, I would love to ask Beyonce why.

: Moremi Feb 22 2004, 10:10 PM

QUOTE (zapatista @ Feb 23 2004, 01:36 AM)
I have something else to add to this discussion tho... I was talking to a friend of mine who only dates white women.. and I asked him about it.. ya know.. like.. why do you ALWAYS date white women.. ya know.. just wondering.. and he was telling me that.. if he has mixed kids they will have an easier life and all this... how do you think more and more mixed children and mixed people come in to play in this growing shift toward a certain look? unsure.gif

Interesting. Mind if ask what race your friend is?

I'm reading the book "Soul On Ice" ... again... so this has been on my mind also.

Well, it's always been the case with African Americans, anyway, that the more white blood you had, the more privileges you received in society. Some blacks still try to pass as white. There is a well known family out here in Maryland, called the Proctors. They actually marry their cousins and stuff because they want to keep the "light skinned" looked in their family. sad.gif

: Sara Feb 22 2004, 10:11 PM

well that's a good point, the only way to know why she goes blonde is to ask her laugh.gif

have u seen her video? me myself and i? doesnt she honestly look white? blink.gif

maybe she's playing the game, maybe she's so deep in the game that now she buys into the game, am i making sense...haha i guess what im trying to say is, sometimes when we adopt certain attitudes, even if we're just fronting and posing, after a while we really start believing in these notions uknow? it could've started with her wanting to look more "acceptable" to a wider range of ppl, but now she really thinks blonde is beautiful? it's not so much being smarted than lil kim, coz like i said, we're raised with certain values u know, and escaping them is quite hard sometimes. although i must say that if lil kim is aware of what she's doing and if she really believes that what she's doing is a result of what she's been growing up watching on TV, then it's time for her to get over it, i mean once we realise that there's a problem and we identify that causes, that's a step forward, towards a solution, so lil kim it's time to move on.

u know, i go blonde coz mom says i look prettier in blonde, but u know this discussion kinda put it all in perspective, great topic.

: Moremi Feb 22 2004, 10:14 PM

QUOTE (ozorage @ Feb 23 2004, 01:48 AM)
If you're white you're all right
If you're yellow you're mellow
If you're brown stick around
If you're black get back.

Yeah, I know that saying. There's a lot of truth in that. sad.gif

: zapatista Feb 22 2004, 10:19 PM

QUOTE (Moremi @ Feb 23 2004, 01:10 AM)
Interesting. Mind if ask what race your friend is?

I'm reading the book "Soul On Ice" ... again... so this has been on my mind also.

Well, it's always been the case with African Americans, anyway, that the more white blood you had, the more privileges you received in society. Some blacks still try to pass as white. There is a well known family out here in Maryland, called the Proctors. They actually marry their cousins and stuff because they want to keep the "light skinned" looked in their family. sad.gif

He's black, and he's dark skinned.. a very handsome dark skinned man. We happen to be talking about interacial relationships and since i have NEVER seen him with a black woman in all the years I have known him I asked.. and he told me he wanted his children to be light skinned so they would have more opportunities. It's not even that he doesnt find black women attractive.. because he does, it's almost like he's breeding opportunities (for lack of a better phrase) for his children. At first being a multi-racial person myself.. it didn't make much sense to me.. but after reading everything that you have writen about it... I can kind of see why such toughts and ideals might come to someones mind...

oh.. and I read about the Proctors... that's soo... i dont even know.

: Moremi Feb 22 2004, 10:21 PM

Totally agree about Lil Kim. She should stop making excuses and change.

No, I haven't seen the "Me, Myself and I" video. I don't watch MTV or BET anymore, for the same reasons we're talking about laugh.gif I don't like exposing myself that anymore, it's depressing. I just download videos from artists, who I know are going to have something positive to show me. I'll take your word ermm.gif

: Sara Feb 22 2004, 10:28 PM

^ do u know if they make her look lighter? coz i swear, she looks very light skinned in that video...do they make her wear like body makeup two shades lighter or something...?

yeah i agree bout music videos...it's just getting a bit much.


but also, i was thinking today...beyonce doesnt look very typically black, but then again, what is a typical black? why is it typical? are we more likely to encounter a typical black person on the street than say a not so typical black person? maybe the idea of a typical black person was fed to us thru the media...?!

: Moremi Feb 22 2004, 10:33 PM

QUOTE (zapatista @ Feb 23 2004, 02:19 AM)
He's black, and he's dark skinned.. a very handsome dark skinned man. We happen to be talking about interacial relationships and since i have NEVER seen him with a black woman in all the years I have known him I asked.. and he told me he wanted his children to be light skinned so they would have more opportunities. It's not even that he doesnt find black women attractive.. because he does, it's almost like he's breeding opportunities (for lack of a better phrase) for his children. At first being a multi-racial person myself.. it didn't make much sense to me.. but after reading everything that you have writen about it... I can kind of see why such toughts and ideals might come to someones mind...

oh.. and I read about the Proctors... that's soo... i dont even know.

Unfortunately, I know one too many people like that sad.gif

Here's a quote from the book "Soul On Ice"

"Many Negroes believe, as the principle of assimilation into White America implies, that the race problem in America cannot be settled until all the traces of the black race are eliminated. Toward this end, many Negroes loathe the very idea of two very dark skinned Negroes mating. The children, they say will come out ugly. What they mean is that the children are sure to be black."

It's sad but this still holds true today. Some black people and other "minorities", hate the skin their in and marry outside of their race soley for the purpose of producing children that don't look like them. sad.gif

: Sara Feb 22 2004, 10:39 PM

QUOTE (Moremi @ Feb 23 2004, 07:33 PM)
It's sad but this still holds true today. Some black people and other "minorities", hate the skin their in and marry outside of their race soley for the purpose of producing children that don't look like them. sad.gif

self hate is just so cruel.... ermm.gif

: zapatista Feb 22 2004, 10:44 PM

almost sounds like the dark skinned black person is becoming a "minority" in their own race. sad.gif I'm not against interacial couples.. you love who you love... but the idea of breeding out a race intentionally... kind of makes me sick.. it doesn't seem right.. ya know.

: Moremi Feb 22 2004, 10:46 PM

QUOTE (Sarah @ Feb 23 2004, 02:28 AM)
^ do u know if they make her look lighter? coz i swear, she looks very light skinned in that video...do they make her wear like body makeup two shades lighter or something...?

yeah i agree bout music videos...it's just getting a bit much.


but also, i was thinking today...beyonce doesnt look very typically black, but then again, what is a typical black? why is it typical? are we more likely to encounter a typical black person on the street than say a not so typical black person? maybe the idea of a typical black person was fed to us thru the media...?!

I've also wondered if it's the camera's or make up. All I know for sure is she doesn't look the way she used too. blink.gif Black people come in all colors, so I don't think there's one type that could be considered "typical." I've seen black people who actually look white, not because of anything they've done to alter their appearance but it's just how they are, through mixing. There's even people in Africa, who are natives and not mixed, that have a lighter complexion. But you're right, the media does have a lot to do with what we think of as black, and even Asian and "Hispanic."

: zapatista Feb 22 2004, 10:49 PM

I think I might pick up that book Moremi.

: Sara Feb 22 2004, 10:52 PM

yeah it could be cameras, maybe make up, thu, it would be so sad on her behalf to wear make up to make her look lighter...it doesnt make her any more beautiful in my eyes.

yeah see there's no "typical" black person u know? we are being told thru TV what is typical and what isnt...the notion of a typical black (or any typical race for that matter) is almost imagined...africans, wether americans or from africa all look different and diverse. like u said it also goes for other ethnic groups.

u know what else is interesting, is on TV, when we see programmes like Law and Order or Third Watch or The Guardian, it's funny how they hand pick the black ppl that r playing the criminal-on-today's-episode, they are quite dark, with big lips, almost ur "typical black person" u know?

: Moremi Feb 22 2004, 11:10 PM

QUOTE (zapatista @ Feb 23 2004, 02:49 AM)
I think I might pick up that book Moremi.

Soul On Ice is a great book and it gives a painfully honest view on why some black men only date white women. There's black women with that mind set also. Many of the reasons he states in his book, I also heard growing up, in my teens, from guys who were actually cruel enough and stupid enough to have such discussions in my presence. I would post more but it's so harsh and I don't want to offend anybody. We might have to move this to the hot seat, you know. I love dark skinned men but I've noticed, the ones that are African American usually prefer light skinned black women or white girls. Most likely for the same reasons your friend told you. I don't hold a grudge or any bitterness for it. I understand why it happens. This society is very hostile towards black people and through slavery, segregation, the media, the educational system, we've been taught to hate ourselves. There are so many forces working against you, if you can get to a place where you truly love who you are, consider yourself blessed. You beat the odds.

: Casbah Feb 23 2004, 12:42 AM

i cant bring all my thoughts together on this subject either, but its one ive been debating in my head for awhile..........honestly, im kinda scared to talk about it cus im afraid im gonna get words put in my mouth or be misinterpreted.......

im white, but few of the girls ive dated so far are white and i cannot think of a possible explanation as to why this is, "you love who you love" is true, but alot of these posts indicate the possibility that something else influences this

: Sara Feb 23 2004, 12:56 AM

QUOTE (casbah rebel @ Feb 23 2004, 09:42 PM)
i cant bring all my thoughts together on this subject either, but its one ive been debating in my head for awhile..........honestly, im kinda scared to talk about it cus im afraid im gonna get words put in my mouth or be misinterpreted.......

im white, but few of the girls ive dated so far are white and i cannot think of a possible explanation as to why this is, "you love who you love" is true, but alot of these posts indicate the possibility that something else influences this

u wont offend anyone, unless u say offensive things...


white dating white black dating black, or ppl of different races dating is not the issue...the discussion here is really bout self hate...when a black person dates a white person it really could be that u love who u love, but zap gave a specific example, a black person who chooses to date white girls coz he wants to have half white kids coz he believes they'll have better chances in life than those who r fully black u know?

: Guerrilla Feb 23 2004, 03:58 AM

QUOTE (joemomma86 @ Feb 20 2004, 03:10 AM)
fuck that stuckup bitch.

OMG! He called a women a bitch! where are the flammes! he must be sexist! fuckin pig!

: Moremi Feb 23 2004, 08:28 AM

QUOTE (Sarah @ Feb 23 2004, 04:56 AM)
QUOTE (casbah rebel @ Feb 23 2004, 09:42 PM)
i cant bring all my thoughts together on this subject either, but its one ive been debating in my head for awhile..........honestly, im kinda scared to talk about it cus im afraid im gonna get words put in my mouth or be misinterpreted.......

im white, but few of the girls ive dated so far are white and i cannot think of a possible explanation as to why this is, "you love who you love" is true, but alot of these posts indicate the possibility that something else influences this

u wont offend anyone, unless u say offensive things...


white dating white black dating black, or ppl of different races dating is not the issue...the discussion here is really bout self hate...when a black person dates a white person it really could be that u love who u love, but zap gave a specific example, a black person who chooses to date white girls coz he wants to have half white kids coz he believes they'll have better chances in life than those who r fully black u know?

Well, it depends on what casabah rebel is talking about. Is he dating mostly outside of his race because he finds women that are not his race more attractive? Is he doing it out of some myth that a certain type of woman behaves differently because of her race? The discussion is also about beauty and why we find certain races or skin colors more beautiful or appealing than others. I would like to know why.

: Casbah Feb 23 2004, 08:43 AM

its not a behavior thing at all, i hear people talk like that and it just sounds ridiculous, like theyre talking about animals or something...........


--my computer is being stupid and wont let me copy and paste text so i cant respond to quotes, so its going to be difficult for me to participate in this conversation--

: ozorage Feb 23 2004, 08:44 AM

aahh! shocking.gif this discussion goes by so fast...

ok. this just popped into my head...

anyone watch America's Next Top Model? (or am i the only loser... tongue.gif ... ) anyhoo...

in one episode they had a photo shoot in which they were to become famous celebreties (Salma Hayek, Marilyn Monroe, Angelina Jolie...Billie Holiday...) ... anyway... this girl, Xiomara was transformed into Grace Jones and she wasn't feelin it... Tyra Banks made this statement about black women not wanting to become darker... Tyra herself is very light-skinned... anyway... as far as i can recall Xiomara never said she had a problem becoming darker... she just said she didn't/couldn't invision herself as Grace Jones...aaaaaanyway...

interesting picture...
user posted image



: Moremi Feb 23 2004, 11:31 AM

^ There was a guy who was really. famous for that. I think he passed away though. He has a book where he transformed Kina, Martha Stewart and other celebs into Tina Turner, Marylin Monroe and others. Anyway, I'm not surprised she wasn't feeling it...and Tyra's statement is right but she also plays into that image thing too. Growing up, my peers, who were mostly African American, would tell me not to stay out in the sun too long because I would get too dark. The girls especially would avoid going out in the sun because they didn't want their skin to darken. Most of the people in my family are dark skinned, so their statements were rather telling of how they really felt about me and themselves really.

: Moremi Feb 23 2004, 11:33 AM

QUOTE (casbah rebel @ Feb 23 2004, 12:43 PM)
its not a behavior thing at all, i hear people talk like that and it just sounds ridiculous, like theyre talking about animals or something...........


--my computer is being stupid and wont let me copy and paste text so i cant respond to quotes, so its going to be difficult for me to participate in this conversation--

Can you explain what you meant then?

Don't worry about the cop/paste thing. We'll be able to follow your convo.

: Moremi Feb 23 2004, 12:48 PM

I was wondering, do Mexicans, Cuban's, Puerto Ricans, etc., deal with similar issues. I remember watching a special on HBO a few years ago that featured a girl from Puerto Rico. She talked about how growing up she felt pressured to straighten her hair but as she got older she felt she was being conditioned to look more European and stopped doing that.

Here's another passage from the book, "Soul On Ice" by Eldridge Cleaver, which by the way is on the Rage Against The Machine reading list. It was one of the books that appeared in the photograph for Evil Empire. I often wonder who selected this one ... Zack? Tom? hmm.gif This passage deals with self-hatred. Cleaver has been criticize for some to things he wrote but I don't think it's that different from things that Malcolm X or authors like Alice Walker have said. His approach is just very raw. This isn't Cleaver talking but it's from a conversation he had with another black man. I apologize if anyone is offended by this but I would like your thoughts.

QUOTE
"Black women take kindness for weakness. Leave them the least little opening and they will put you on the cross. I hate a black bitch. You can't trust them like you can trust white women, and if you try to, they won't appreciate it and they won't know how to act. It would be like trying to pamper a cobra. Anyway, every black woman secretly hates black men. Secretly, they all love white men -- some of them will tell you so to your face, the others will tell you by their deeds and actions. Haven't you ever noticed that just as soon as a black woman becomes successful she marries a white man? I'm going by what I know. I know one black bitch who always says that there ain't nothing a black man can do for her except leave her alone or bring her a message from, or carry a message to, a white man.

"There is no love left between a black man and a black woman. Take me, for instance. I love a white women and hate black women. It's just in me, so deep that I don't even try to get it out of me anymore. I'd jump over ten nigger bitches just to get one white woman. Ain't no such thing as an ugly white woman. A white woman is beautiful even if she's baldheaded and only has one tooth...It's not just the fact that she's a woman that I love; I love her skin, her soft, smooth white skin. I just like to lick her white skin as if sweet, fresh honey flows from her pores, and just to touch her long, soft, silky hair. There's a softness about a white woman, something delicate and soft inside her. But a nigger bitch seems to be full steel, granite-hard and resisting, not soft and submissive like a white woman. Ain't nothing more beautiful than a white woman's hair being blown by the wind. The white woman is more than woman to me...She's like a goddes, a symbol. My love for her is religous and beyond fulfillment. I worship her. I love a white woman's dirty drawers.

"Sometimes I think that the way I feel about white women, I must have inherited from my father and his father and his father's father -- as far back as you can go into slavery. I must have inherited from all those black men part of my desire for the white woman, because I have more love for her than one man should have. Yes, I want all the white women that they wanted but were never able to get. They passed on their desire to me, they must have; desire for the white woman is like a cancer eating my heart out and devouring my brain. In my dreams I see white women jumping over a fence like dainty little lambs, and every time one of them jumps over, her hair just catches the breeze and spalys out behind her like a man on a Palomino stallino: blondes, redheads, brunettes, strawberry blondes, dirty blondes, drugstore blondes, platinum blondes -- all of them. They are the things in my nightmares. Does all this sound like I'm making it up, youngblood?

"Well, I've thought about it for years. You have to try to understand what's bugging you, you know. But really, I don't believe that I understand anything about anything when you get right down to it. But I'm stuck with myself and I accept my own thoughts about things. For instance, I don't now just how it works, I mean I can't analyze it, but I know that the white man made the black woman the symbol of slavery and the white woman the symbol of freedom. Every time I embrace a black woman I'm embracing slavery, and when I put my arms around a white woman, well, I'm hugging freedom. The white man forbade me to have the white woman on pain of death. Literally, if I touched a white woman it would cost me my life. Men die for freedom, but black men die for white women, who are the symbol of freedom. That was the white man's will, and as long as he has the power to enforce his will upon me, force me to submit to his will in this instance or in any other, I will not be free. I will not be free until the day I can have a white woman in my bed and a white man minds his own business. Until that day comes, my entire existence is tainted, poisoned, and I will still be a slave -- and so will the white woman.

"You may not believe this ... when I off a nigger bitch, I close my eyes and concentrate real hard, and pretty soon I get to believing that I'm riding one of them bucking blondes. I tell you the truth, that's the only way I can bust my nuts with a black bitch, to close my eyes and pretend that she is Jezebel. If I was to look down and see a black bitch underneath me or if my hand happened to feel her nappy her, that would be the end, it would be all over. I might as well get on up and split because I wouldn't be able to get anything down, even if I piled her all night long. Any black man who says he don't dig Jezebel is a goddamn liar. I believe that if a leader wanted to unite the Negroes in solid unity he could do so very easily. All he'd have to do is promise every black man a white woman and every black woman a white man. He would have so many followers he wouldn't know what to do with them all. Believe me."



: ozorage Feb 23 2004, 08:00 PM

QUOTE (Moremi @ Feb 23 2004, 03:48 PM)
I was wondering, do Mexicans, Cuban's, Puerto Ricans, etc., deal with similar issues. I remember watching a special on HBO a few years ago that featured a girl from Puerto Rico. She talked about how growing up she felt pressured to straighten her hair but as she got older she felt she was being conditioned to look more European and stopped doing that.

there was a discussion this afternoon in one of my classes....we were listening to this song by a jibaro singer, Ramito, called http://www.cuatro-pr.org/Home/Espan/Instrumusica/Generos/nuestra_sangre.htm(Our Blood)... the song is meant to tell the story of Puerto Ricans... where they came from... from the Tainos, Spanish, and Africans... however, it's all romantized and shit... as far as talking about love rather than rape...
...and then the last decima in the song...goes like this...

QUOTE
Between Africa, where the sun scorches
And Siberia, with its frozen lava,
Amongst opulence and misery
My race was established.
Where it is not rare to see married
A white man and a brown-skinned woman
Or, a northern blonde
with dark prestigious man,
Because that is rightly the vestige
Of the Puerto Rican race


somebody pointed out how that stanza was blatanly racist... in order for it to be "RIGHTLY the vestige of the Puerto Rican race" there must be some white blood in the mix.....from that people started going off... talking about all kinds of sayings... (the girl who pointed this out is a white Puerto Rican... not sure there's any importance in that... but just in case you had a preconcieved notion of who brought it up..)

...How their familia is constantly telling them "No dañen la raza" ... telling them NOT to mix with anyone black because somehow that would be messing up the "race" ...

...and this, which i've heard a million times... mothers telling their daughters not to marry (have kids with) a black guy cuz they don't wanna be combing nappy hair... i

...there was another saying i can't remember... something about "El Negro being under the bed" dunno.gif i dont' know the saying so i'm almost sure that's not the right saying but that's the point... basically "we realize the African blood is there (obviously) but we don't talk about that that unless it's beneficial to us" .... as far as accrediting the booty or booty-shaking ablility and such.... anyway, then that went on to the whole placement of shit... nobody can deny the Taino, Spanish, and African blood that runs in P.R. however people seem to place the Spanish above the Taino and the Taino above the African...

...i need to find the image the Profe was talking about... i think it was the Instituo Puertorriqueño (but i'm not sure of where.. maybe Spanish Harlem...)... anyway... in it there are three images in their logo... The Spaniard, The Taino, and the African... however... we see the Spaniard in the front standing proud holding a book or something.. then we have the naked Taino holding corn or something, and then we have a naked slave in chains on either side of white man...

...people still hold onto this...the Eurocentric images that have been pounded into their heads... bla bla bla... you know...

....ok. so that was class.....

...




: zapatista Feb 23 2004, 09:25 PM

I have to be honest... I never knew that some black men held black women in such low regard. sad.gif I'm not even really sure where to start with all that...
I did pick Soul on Ice up this morning... right now i'm where he was tranferred to Folsom.. and is in solitary and is reading Merton. I got to tell you tho.. the story about the guard ripping his poster off the wall and trashing it.. and telling him if he can put a black woman up there he will let him keep it... that really hit me. He's such a wonderful writer.. he makes you really feel it.
The way that man discribes his love for white women and his dislike for black women is the kind of stuff some black girlfriends of mine would say they hear... I know you said you don't hold any resentment.. but I know a few women.. who hold very strong resentments... and if they see a black man and a white woman together.. they get furious..

QUOTE
I was wondering, do Mexicans, Cuban's, Puerto Ricans, etc., deal with similar issues. I remember watching a special on HBO a few years ago that featured a girl from Puerto Rico. She talked about how growing up she felt pressured to straighten her hair but as she got older she felt she was being conditioned to look more European and stopped doing that.


when I was about 15 I started dying my hair blond.. and all kinds of stuff.. not staying out in the sun... because while i'm pretty light skinned.. I get REALLY dark with any amount of sun... and I DIDN'T want to be dark... i was going to a Catholic school.. where I was the only person who wasn't white.. and i was half white.. but still singled out... it's hard when your a kid.. now that stuff doesn't really bother me.. but when i was young... i didn't want to be different.

: Casbah Feb 23 2004, 10:03 PM

i think everybody is insecure and/or ashamed of their own appearance to some degree, some more than others, and the ones that say theyre totally comfortable with themselves are often just extremely self-repressed...

its this flaw in people, that advertisers exploit, they create an unaccessible standard of beauty to make sure you keep coming back with more cash trying to reach that standard, though you never really will.....(another brilliant thought out of my mind)

: Sara Feb 24 2004, 01:10 AM

moremi that passage u shared is just so offensive...damn u know? i mean GOD i can't believe some ppl can honestly think like that....u know what gets to me is, this self hate....they hate their women coz of their coarse hair....the same hair those men have?! sad.....real sad and it makes me angry too...

anyways i was thikning bout what u posted asking bout earlier

QUOTE
The discussion is also about beauty and why we find certain races or skin colors more beautiful or appealing than others.


a lot of it has to do with being fascinated with what u havent got...it must be a cultural universal, u know, for ppl to go "wow look at her eyes they're so big/blue/brown" u know? it seems like a lot of us want what we cant have, so if i see a blonde woman with blue eyes i sometimes think i'd like to have her eyes, but i get loads of ladies who come to my shop and comment on my brown eyes, coz they have blue eyes or hazel eyes, it doesnt mean im pretty or they're prettier it just reflects that we want what we dont have.

what's beautiful is most of the time, what is exotic, what stands out from us, what looks different to us (unless we're discussing deformities?)

and i believe u mentioned something bout being conditioned to view certain biological traits as beautiful, that's true, the media does a lot of that, we tend to associate certain behaviours with certain ethinicities or biological traits, and often, white women are so desired and beautiful and perfect and motherly and etc etc. did u ever watch Monster's Ball? by Halle berry? she's so beautiful and everything, but i swear, i was watching it and the whole time it seemed that she was presented as this exotic creature u know? almost dehumanized, she was so sexy and exotic and the focus on her and her skin made me feel liek she was almost viewed as this abnormal thing...and this is, in my perception not the first time a black woman is presented like that. it seems like black women are often looked at as abnormal for the way they look, not necesseraliy abnormal in the sense of ugly but abnormal as in, so different from every other woman, because they're dark and because of they lips and eyes and hair. im not sure im making much sense here ermm.gif

: Sara Feb 24 2004, 01:12 AM

QUOTE (casbah rebel @ Feb 24 2004, 07:03 PM)
i think everybody is insecure and/or ashamed of their own appearance to some degree, some more than others

but see, when one becomes ashamed of some ethinic-related attribute, that's when u know there's a problem? i think it's very dangerous ermm.gif

: Moremi Feb 24 2004, 11:10 AM

QUOTE (ozorage @ Feb 24 2004, 12:00 AM)
QUOTE (Moremi @ Feb 23 2004, 03:48 PM)
I was wondering, do Mexicans, Cuban's, Puerto Ricans, etc., deal with similar issues. I remember watching a special on HBO a few years ago that featured a girl from Puerto Rico. She talked about how growing up she felt pressured to straighten her hair but as she got older she felt she was being conditioned to look more European and stopped doing that.

there was a discussion this afternoon in one of my classes....we were listening to this song by a jibaro singer, Ramito, called http://www.cuatro-pr.org/Home/Espan/Instrumusica/Generos/nuestra_sangre.htm(Our Blood)... the song is meant to tell the story of Puerto Ricans... where they came from... from the Tainos, Spanish, and Africans... however, it's all romantized and shit... as far as talking about love rather than rape...
...and then the last decima in the song...goes like this...

QUOTE
Between Africa, where the sun scorches
And Siberia, with its frozen lava,
Amongst opulence and misery
My race was established.
Where it is not rare to see married
A white man and a brown-skinned woman
Or, a northern blonde
with dark prestigious man,
Because that is rightly the vestige
Of the Puerto Rican race


somebody pointed out how that stanza was blatanly racist... in order for it to be "RIGHTLY the vestige of the Puerto Rican race" there must be some white blood in the mix.....from that people started going off... talking about all kinds of sayings... (the girl who pointed this out is a white Puerto Rican... not sure there's any importance in that... but just in case you had a preconcieved notion of who brought it up..)

...How their familia is constantly telling them "No dañen la raza" ... telling them NOT to mix with anyone black because somehow that would be messing up the "race" ...

...and this, which i've heard a million times... mothers telling their daughters not to marry (have kids with) a black guy cuz they don't wanna be combing nappy hair... i

...there was another saying i can't remember... something about "El Negro being under the bed" dunno.gif i dont' know the saying so i'm almost sure that's not the right saying but that's the point... basically "we realize the African blood is there (obviously) but we don't talk about that that unless it's beneficial to us" .... as far as accrediting the booty or booty-shaking ablility and such.... anyway, then that went on to the whole placement of shit... nobody can deny the Taino, Spanish, and African blood that runs in P.R. however people seem to place the Spanish above the Taino and the Taino above the African...

...i need to find the image the Profe was talking about... i think it was the Instituo Puertorriqueño (but i'm not sure of where.. maybe Spanish Harlem...)... anyway... in it there are three images in their logo... The Spaniard, The Taino, and the African... however... we see the Spaniard in the front standing proud holding a book or something.. then we have the naked Taino holding corn or something, and then we have a naked slave in chains on either side of white man...

...people still hold onto this...the Eurocentric images that have been pounded into their heads... bla bla bla... you know...

....ok. so that was class.....

...

Good post ozo!!! I don't know a lot about the history of Puerto Rico but it sounds like race issues they are experiencing there are very similar to the ones in other parts of the U.S.? This is very interesting to me. I'm going to read up on this. Thank you!

: Moremi Feb 24 2004, 11:49 AM

QUOTE (zapatista @ Feb 24 2004, 01:25 AM)
I have to be honest... I never knew that some black men held black women in such low regard. sad.gif I'm not even really sure where to start with all that...
I did pick Soul on Ice up this morning... right now i'm where he was tranferred to Folsom.. and is in solitary and is reading Merton. I got to tell you tho.. the story about the guard ripping his poster off the wall and trashing it.. and telling him if he can put a black woman up there he will let him keep it... that really hit me. He's such a wonderful writer.. he makes you really feel it.
The way that man discribes his love for white women and his dislike for black women is the kind of stuff some black girlfriends of mine would say they hear... I know you said you don't hold any resentment.. but I know a few women.. who hold very strong resentments... and if they see a black man and a white woman together.. they get furious..

QUOTE
I was wondering, do Mexicans, Cuban's, Puerto Ricans, etc., deal with similar issues. I remember watching a special on HBO a few years ago that featured a girl from Puerto Rico. She talked about how growing up she felt pressured to straighten her hair but as she got older she felt she was being conditioned to look more European and stopped doing that.


when I was about 15 I started dying my hair blond.. and all kinds of stuff.. not staying out in the sun... because while i'm pretty light skinned.. I get REALLY dark with any amount of sun... and I DIDN'T want to be dark... i was going to a Catholic school.. where I was the only person who wasn't white.. and i was half white.. but still singled out... it's hard when your a kid.. now that stuff doesn't really bother me.. but when i was young... i didn't want to be different.

When I was younger, I wasn't secure with myself either. I was told that I was pretty but, indirectly and even directly, I was always being told that what was really beautiful -- what every guy wanted -- was a white woman. But I've learned to love myself and moving to an area where a lot of the people looked like me helped a lot. Many of the things guys teased me about growing up, the men out here love. But even as I begin to understand, appreciate and love myself, it's disheartening to look around and see people falling for the same tricks that made me feel bad about myself for so long.

Glad you picked up the book. Cleaver is an excellent writer. I appreciate his honesty and how he confronted his demons. Of course it's not a representation of how all black men or women feel but it's a great example of the self hate, so many of our writers and leaders have talked about, that too many black people suffer from.

: Moremi Feb 24 2004, 12:11 PM

QUOTE (Sarah @ Feb 24 2004, 05:10 AM)
a lot of it has to do with being fascinated with what u havent got...it must be a cultural universal, u know, for ppl to go "wow look at her eyes they're so big/blue/brown" u know? it seems like a lot of us want what we cant have, so if i see a blonde woman with blue eyes i sometimes think i'd like to have her eyes, but i get loads of ladies who come to my shop and comment on my brown eyes, coz they have blue eyes or hazel eyes, it doesnt mean im pretty or they're prettier it just reflects that we want what we dont have.

what's beautiful is most of the time, what is exotic, what stands out from us, what looks different to us (unless we're discussing deformities?)

and i believe u mentioned something bout being conditioned to view certain biological traits as beautiful, that's true, the media does a lot of that, we tend to associate certain behaviours with certain ethinicities or biological traits, and often, white women are so desired and beautiful and perfect and motherly and etc etc. did u ever watch Monster's Ball? by Halle berry? she's so beautiful and everything, but i swear, i was watching it and the whole time it seemed that she was presented as this exotic creature u know? almost dehumanized, she was so sexy and exotic and the focus on her and her skin made me feel liek she was almost viewed as this abnormal thing...and this is, in my perception not the first time a black woman is presented like that. it seems like black women are often looked at as abnormal for the way they look, not necesseraliy abnormal in the sense of ugly but abnormal as in, so different from every other woman, because they're dark and because of they lips and eyes and hair. im not sure im making much sense here ermm.gif

That's true to some extent but it's usually very one sided. The blue eyed lady who stops to notice your brown eyes, is she putting contacts in to look like you? Is she dying her blonde hair brown to get your look? I don't know of any white people having surgery to make their eyes look Asian but you do hear of Asians having cosmetic surgery to widen their eyes. Blacks have their noses chiseled, their lips clipped...and walk into any African supermarket and some Spanish markets for that matter, you will almost always find a section of skin bleaching creams. Sometimes it's behind the counter, so people don't run off and steal them unsure.gif ...it's that ridiculous. It's usually minorities that are making permanent and unhealthy decisions to change their body in order to look, less African or Asian or Spanish. You see more of that than you do the other way around. The compliments I get, I don't always take as compliments. Like, I have people ask to touch my hair or tell me that I have a nice mouth. I think they're just being curious and would they really want my mouth? I doubt it. But a lot of us want theirs, you know. As Chris Rock said, "There isn't a white person who would want to trade places with me, and I'm rich."

I saw Monster's Ball. It's one of those movies, I'll never watch again. Not surprised she got an Oscar for that one, you know, and it wasn't even her best performance.

: Sara Feb 24 2004, 10:37 PM

QUOTE (Moremi @ Feb 25 2004, 09:11 AM)
That's true to some extent but it's usually very one sided. The blue eyed lady who stops to notice your brown eyes, is she putting contacts in to look like you? Is she dying her blonde hair brown to get your look? I don't know of any white people having surgery to make their eyes look Asian but you do hear of Asians having cosmetic surgery to widen their eyes. Blacks have their noses chiseled, their lips clipped...and walk into any African supermarket and some Spanish markets for that matter, you will almost always find a section of skin bleaching creams. Sometimes it's behind the counter, so people don't run off and steal them unsure.gif ...it's that ridiculous. It's usually minorities that are making permanent and unhealthy decisions to change their body in order to look, less African or Asian or Spanish. You see more of that than you do the other way around. The compliments I get, I don't always take as compliments. Like, I have people ask to touch my hair or tell me that I have a nice mouth. I think they're just being curious and would they really want my mouth? I doubt it. But a lot of us want theirs, you know. As Chris Rock said, "There isn't a white person who would want to trade places with me, and I'm rich."

I saw Monster's Ball. It's one of those movies, I'll never watch again. Not surprised she got an Oscar for that one, you know, and it wasn't even her best performance.

that's true, i dont see women with blue eyes wearing brown contacts, but then again, i wouldnt wear blue contacts either u know, or green or any coloured ones. i have to say thu moremi, is that, it's very different in NZ, and it's a mistake on my behalf to keep using NZ examples, coz we truely have a different representation here...for example, and this is my last NZ example i promise tongue.gif we have a soap opera here called shortland street, and in it, all women, maori, anglo, asian are all equal, they all mistakes and they get guys and they all have good and bad moments and all are looked at as sexy, ugly, stupid, smart, good, evil, it's a more or less a balanced representaion...so when i say i get women commenting on my eyes, truely some of them won't mind swapping eyes, but see they wouldnt take it as far as wearing contacts u know? i wouldnt wear contacts, i know even if i wanted to have blue eyes (which i did when i was younger) i never really thought of wearing contacts...and now...like u said, i grew to love myself, i wouldnt want to change anything bout me.

u know, those ppl wanting to touch ur hair are just so fucking STUPID, what the fuck? that's what i mean bout the representation of black women in the american media "woah unsual, let's touch her and see if she moves" u know? that kinda FUCKED UP IDEALOGY zmat2.gif

i see what ur saying bout japanese ladies going thru plastic surgery to widen their eyes and no white woman doing that, but u know, it's only one sided simply coz cultural imperialism is one sided, there's a cultural invasion and all non-american media is really saturated with american junk. i hate to think of us ppl as passive audience, but some of us really buy into the crap and that image and what's beautiful and what's not...and go to extreme lengths.

u know that whitening facial cream u were talking bout? they sell it in Egypt and the UAE, so the idea of white is pretty is there too...it's also prevelent in some parts of india and in asian countries, but not so much coz of the european ideal image, but it is to do with the "purity of the race" and the caste one belongs to... ermm.gif

: Moremi Feb 25 2004, 12:17 PM

Well, New Zealand sounds like a very peaceful and nice place to live. Maybe I'll get to go one day and see a different side of life grin.gif

I agree with what you said about black people being treated like exotic animals, hahaha That's one of the reasons I'm a little skeptical. I don't think some people realize how strange and insulting some of the things they say or do are ...Makes you wonder if they even spend any personal time around black people unsure.gif

Anyway, I've been thinking about the movie Hollywood Shuffle by Robert Townsend. It came out in the late 80s and dealt with many of the problems black people experience in show business. The movie was slightly based on his experiences being stereotyped in roles and how he often felt like he had to compromise his integrity in order to make ends meet. I've noticed some of the black entertainers that I like endorsing products that seem to go against what they stand for. When confronted about it in interviews, they have said it's about money. They have to support their families. Maybe I have this wrong, but it seems like we have compromise a little in order to get our foot in the door. At least, that's what many people are doing. For instance, remember Tamyra from American Idol. She started out with a natural look. She wore her hair in a little fro. But as the competition got tighter, she straightened her hair and put in a weave and the judges complimented her about her decision to change her look. It made her more appealing. It's things like this that sometimes make it difficult for me to point the finger at the artist, when it's really the industry and some fragments of society that make it so difficult for people to be themselves. Anyway, just thinking...

: Sara Feb 25 2004, 02:01 PM

^ yes i remember that girl! i remember the episode when she straightened her hair and they all said nice things bout it, like how it's a good decision or something...and i thought it was odd, coz she didnt look different u know? like i liked her curly hair, and when she straightened it, in my view it didnt really make her any more "American idol" but of course they did rolleyes.gif

u know women of every ethinic group seem to be going thru more extreme measures to get to the ideal look.

she should listen to blackaliciour more often, and get the hairstraightner and ask simon to shove it up his ass blackhair.gif

: Sara Feb 25 2004, 02:05 PM

QUOTE (Moremi @ Feb 26 2004, 09:17 AM)
Well, New Zealand sounds like a very peaceful and nice place to live. Maybe I'll get to go one day and see a different side of life grin.gif


it's not perfect, racism exists here, but it's not as bad, it's minor i believe, i mean i got called things...and a lady asked me if im mexican and i said im not and she apologized and said "i didnt mean to offend u by assuming ur mexican...almost sounds like a slur" and i went blink.gif so yeah it's not perfect, but it's much better than other european/western countries.

: Underground Feb 25 2004, 03:36 PM

except for the obsession with sheep, NZ is ok

: Moremi Feb 25 2004, 05:35 PM

QUOTE (Sarah @ Feb 25 2004, 06:01 PM)
^ yes i remember that girl! i remember the episode when she straightened her hair and they all said nice things bout it, like how it's a good decision or something...and i thought it was odd, coz she didnt look different u know? like i liked her curly hair, and when she straightened it, in my view it didnt really make her any more "American idol" but of course they did rolleyes.gif

u know women of every ethinic group seem to be going thru more extreme measures to get to the ideal look.

she should listen to blackaliciour more often, and get the hairstraightner and ask simon to shove it up his ass blackhair.gif

Tamyra looked better when her hair was natural. I don't mind that she did it, I just don't like the fact that it looked like she did it to win people over and especially how the judges praised her afterward.

Blackalicious is awesome w00t.gif Also, Mos Def and Talib Kweli have my heart when it comes to this and just about every other thing, LOL. Ok, off topic but if anyone wants to hear a real postive song listen to Brown Skin Lady by Black Star or For Women by Talib Kweli and Hi-Tek embar.gif

: Moremi Feb 25 2004, 05:46 PM

I mean, listen to both w00t.gif

QUOTE
it's not perfect, racism exists here, but it's not as bad, it's minor i believe, i mean i got called things...and a lady asked me if im mexican and i said im not and she apologized and said "i didnt mean to offend u by assuming ur mexican...almost sounds like a slur" and i went blink.gif  so yeah it's not perfect, but it's much better than other european/western countries.

Yeah, it's weird how people get uneasy or curious to the point of being rude, if they can't figure out a persons race or background. I guess it's normal to wonder but approaching someone on the street, who you don't even know, is just messed up ermm.gif

: Underground Feb 25 2004, 07:02 PM

QUOTE (Moremi @ Feb 26 2004, 01:35 AM)
listen to Brown Skin Lady by Black Star or For Women by Talib Kweli and Hi-Tek embar.gif

check out Brown Skin Woman from KRS-ONE's 1993 album Return of the Boom Bap....


Kid Capri}
Aiyyo Kris, yo yo yo!
That was fresh, come with that next shit

Uhh! Fat fat fat fat beats! ..
How refreshing is it really?
How refreshing is it really?!
Ha ha ha ha ha ha! Whoo! ..
Big shout out to Philly in the house
G. Simone, you know you're not alone
KRS-One on the micraphone
Now we gonna come down ruffneck like this now seen?
Mad Lion hold tight

Chorus:

Brown skin woman, you a queen, not a HOE
Any man that drop the lyric what we give them the BO
Brown skin woman you a queen and not a HOE
Any man that drop the lyric what we give them the BO

Verse One:

We don't come with disrespect, we come with intellect
If you come with disrespect you get a rope around your neck
Some people don't expect me, to be so violent
But me NAH violent, just myself I protect
Too many time I see, young gwal pickadee
Pay five ten twenty thirty dollar to see
some rapper some singer some .. celebrity
Talk bout they wan fi sex up and fill up you body
But them NAH talk about peelin off some money
for the pumpin onna bed, when you haf the baby
Whattaya think can happen next? After you're done havin sex?
Too much of ignorance, not enough intellence
Mahn me NOT against sex, but too many DJ
talk sex but them not talk about the next day
Cause the next day them gone, and you sit alone
Got em soup up your mic, pon de micraphone

Chorus (w/ minor variations)

Verse Two:

Brown skin gwal them can't diss yo
Cause you run the show-ow-ow!
Them call you all type of bimbo
But you know you're not a hoe-oe-oe!
Bwoy pickade, check out your history
Brown man is a God in any ci-ty
White, man knew dat, and dat was a shock
So dem whip up your bod', and dem whippin not stop
But dem NAH can't stop us wit de whip and de chain
So dem take away your history, erase your name
STILL, with no name, with no fight, with no fuss
We just, take on the name, that MASSA give us
That name is NI-GGA, the correct is NE-GRO
It's spa-nish for BLACK, white mahn call us DAT
There is also NE-GROID, also NE-GRO
Now, all nigga pon the corner playin cee-lo
Man you're not a ne-gro, cause you're skin is not black
Take a look at yourself, you're brown and that's a fact
You not jump from no tree, you not live in no cave
That's some GARBAGE dem print, dem want you to behave!
You a African man, some say Asian
You must respect your love, all brown skin 'oman!
If you diss your 'oman, you not come wit no plan
So shut up your mowf, til you must understand!

Chorus (w/ minor variations)

Outro:

I know you want me to call you a nigga.. NO!
I know you want me to call you a hoe.. NO!
I know you want me to call you a bitch.. NO!
This is how it go!

{Kid Capri}
Yes Kris, you're large!
Another fat production by the KIIIIID Capri
Big shouts to the engineer Naughty
Big shouts to Luca, and we OUTTTTTTTTA here!

Peeeeeeeeeeace!

: zapatista Feb 25 2004, 11:19 PM

This is off topic... but it has an interview with Eldridge Cleaver.. whos book I am reading... and overall it's very intersting..
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/race/

: Moremi Feb 26 2004, 11:19 AM

Woah, that is off topic tongue.gif But great interview, I don't agree with all he's saying there but it was cool. The one with Angela Davis is good too.

: Moremi Feb 26 2004, 11:36 AM

QUOTE (Underground @ Feb 25 2004, 11:02 PM)
QUOTE (Moremi @ Feb 26 2004, 01:35 AM)
listen to Brown Skin Lady by Black Star or For Women by Talib Kweli and Hi-Tek  embar.gif

check out Brown Skin Woman from KRS-ONE's 1993 album Return of the Boom Bap....

Thanks for posting that great song. KRS-One is amazing embar.gif Here are the lyrics from "For Women". I swear this song makes me cry sometimes cry.gif Sorry for the length but he has a lot to say.

Reflection Eternal - For Women

[Talib Kweli] (Spoken)
Yea, so we got this tune called "For Women" right
Originally, it was by Nina Simone
She said it was inspired by, you know
Down south. In the south, they used to call her Mother Auntie
She said No Mrs.
Just Auntie
She said if anybody ever called her Auntie
she'd burn the whole goddamn place down
I'm over past that
Coming into the new millennium, we can't forget our elders

[Talib Kweli]
I got off the 2 train in Brooklyn on my way to a session
Said let me help this woman up the stairs before I get to steppin'
We got in a conversation she said she a 107
Just her presence was a blessing and her essence was a lesson
She had her head wrapped
And long dreads that peeked out the back
Like antenna to help her get a sense of where she was at, imagine that
Livin' a century, the strength of her memories
Felt like an angel had been sent to me
She lived from nigger to colored to Negro to black
To afro then African-American and right back to nigger
You figure she'd be bitter in the twilight
But she all right, cuz she done seen the circle of life yo
Her skin was black like it was packed with melanin
Back in the days of slaves she packin' like Harriet Tubman
Her arms are long and she moves like song
Feet with corns, hand with callouses
But her heart is warm and her hair is woolly
And it attract a lot of energy even negative
She gotta dead that the head wrap is her remedy
Her back is strong and she far from a vagabond
This is the back of the masters' whip used to crack upon
Strong enough to take all the pain, that's been
Inflicted again and again and again and again and flipped
It to the love for her children nothing else matters
What do they call her? They call her aunt Sara.

Woman singing in the background

[Talib Kweli] (+ Background Vocals)
I know a girl with a name as beautiful as the rain
Her face is the same but she suffers an unusual pain
Seems she only deals with losers who be usin' them games
Chasin' the real brothers away like she confused in the brain
She tried to get it where she fit in
on that American Dream mission paid tuition
For the receipt to find out her history was missing and started flippin
Seeing the world through very different eyes
People askin' her what she'll do when it comes time to chose sides
Yo, her skin is yellow, it's like her face is blond word is bond
And her hair is long and straight just like sleeping beauty
See, she truly feels like she belong in 2 worlds
And that she can't relate to other girls
Her father was rich and white still livin' with his wife
But he forced himself on her mother late one night
They call it rape that's right and now she take flight
Through life with hate and spite inside her mind
That keep her up to the break of light a lot of times
(I gotta find myself) (3X)
She had to remind herself
They called her Safronia the unwanted seed
Blood still blue in her vein and still red when she bleeds
(Don't, don't, don't hurt me again) (8X)

[Talib Kweli] (+ Background Vocals)
Teenage lovers sit on the stoops up in Harlem
Holdin' hands under the Apollo marquis dreamin of stardom
Since they was born the streets is watchin' and schemin'
And now it got them generations facin' diseases
That don't kill you they just got problems
and complications that get you first
Yo, it's getting worse, when children hide the fact that they pregnant
Cuz they scared of giving birth
How will I feed this baby?
How will I survive, how will this baby shine?
Daddy dead from crack in '85, mommy dead from AIDS in '89
At 14 the baby hit the same streets they became her master
The children of the enslaved, they grow a little faster
They bodies become adult
While they keepin' the thoughts of a child her arrival
Into womanhood was heemed up by her survival
Now she 25, barely grown out her own
Doin' whatever it takes strippin,' workin' out on the block
Up on the phone, talkin' about
(my skin is tan like the front of your hand)
(And my hair...)
(Well my hair's all right whatever way I want to fix it,
it's all right it's fine)
(But my hips, these sweet hips of mine invite you daddy)
(And when I fix my lips my mouth is like wine)
(Take a sip don't be shy, tonight I wanna be your lady)
(I ain't too good for your Mercedes, but first you got to pay me)
(You better quit with all the question, sugar who's little girl am I)
(Why I'm yours if you got enough money to buy)
(You better stop with the compliments we running out of time,)
(You wanna talk whatever we could do that it's your dime)
(From Harlem's from where I came, don't worry about my name,)
(Up on one-two-five they call me sweet thang)

Scratches + Woman singing in the background

[Talib Kweli] (+ Background Vocals)
A daughter come up in Georgia, ripe and ready to plant seeds,
Left the plantation when she saw a sign even thought she can't read
It came from God and when life get hard she always speak to him,
She'd rather kill her babies than let the master get to 'em,
She on the run up north to get across that Mason-Dixon
In church she learned how to be patient and keep wishin',
The promise of eternal life after death for those that God bless
She swears the next baby she'll have will breathe a free breath
and get milk from a free breast,
And love being alive,
otherwise they'll have to give up being themselves to survive,
Being maids, cleaning ladies, maybe teachers or college graduates, nurses, housewives, prostitutes, and drug addicts
Some will grow to be old women, some will die before they born,
They'll be mothers, and lovers who inspire and make songs,
(But me, my skin is brown and my manner is tough,)
(Like the love I give my babies when the rainbow's enuff,)
(I'll kill the first muthafucka that mess with me, I never bluff)
(I ain't got time to lie, my life has been much too rough,)
(Still running with barefeet, I ain't got nothin' but my soul,)
(Freedom is the ultimate goal,
life and death is small on the whole, in many ways)
(I'm awfully bitter these days
'cuz the only parents God gave me, they were slaves,)
(And it crippled me, I got the destiny of a casualty,)
(But I live through my babies and I change my reality)
(Maybe one day I'll ride back to Georgia on a train,)
(Folks 'round there call me Peaches, I guess that's my name.)

: Moremi Feb 26 2004, 11:47 AM

And...


Black Star - Brown Skin Lady

[Mos Def]
Be like yo, let me ask you somethin
I wanna know, I wanna know who you are

*Mos Def singing*
[Mos] Brown skin lady, hey hey
[Talib] Yes
[Mos] Where you goin
[Talib] This goes to the brown skin ladies
[Mos] Brown skin lady
[Talib] Yo, indigenous women of the planet Earth
[Mos] What you doin?
[Talib] Givin birth to the brown skin ladies first
[Mos] Brown skin lady
[Talib] For what it's worth, from me to you
[Mos] How do you feel?
[Talib] From me to you, watchin you
I like the, I like the, I like the, I like the
way you walk, yes, I live the way you move
[Mos] I like the way you walk, when you walk on by
I like the way you move, I like the WAY you move
[Talib] I like the, I like the, I like the, I like the
way you walk, please, won't you do that dance
[Mos] I like the way you walk, when you walk on by
I like the way you move, I like you baby

[together]
And everybody on the avenue, I know, when they see us sing
Everybody on the avenue, I know, when they see us sing, there she is

[Talib]
Fresher than Tony Rebel's vestibules at African street festivals
My incredible women is, plentiful
Over the years I met a few, none of them compare to you
Preparin you to make food bearable, somethin terrible, let's see:
you fruitful, beautiful, smart, lovable, huggable
Doable like art, suitable to be part
of my life, Coppertone owe you copyright infringement
Pay you bidness ten cents, way back in the day
It's like I'm standin there you know appreciatin God's design
and then you showed up, it's like you read my mind
DAMN SHE'S FINE, I think I add the R-E, in front of that
and see if she D, to get, with a cat like me

[Talib] I like the, I like the, I like the, I like the
way you walk, yes, I live the way you move
[Mos] I like the way you walk, when you walk on by
I like the way you move, I like the WAY you move
[Talib] I like the, I like the, I like the, I like the
way you walk, please, won't you do that dance
[Mos] I like the way you walk, when you walk on by
I like the way you move, I like you baby

[together]
And everybody on the avenue, I know, when they see us sing
Everybody on the avenue, I know, when they see us sing, there she is

[Mos Def]
Ooooh! Daring me girl, look at you!
Comin on the block lookin fresh and brand new
Ooooh! Headwrap cover your hairdo
Pretty feet peekin through open-toed shoe
Ooooh! No limit to what I would do
Make love to you like long interview
Whooh! Is she for real, me like you
Good look champion, win the title
True, many man try invite you
Shot down lyric each time they cyph you
Jewel, what man you get all insides you
Feet they walk way and just that sheik posture
Ooooh! Can't be a next one like you
Famous like tapes made by DJ Clue
I tighten up my game as I approach you
Yo check her she the nectar the bee get close to

...

[Talib]
I don't get many compliments, but I am confident
Used to have a complex about, gettin too complex
You got me, willin to try, looked me in the eye
My head is still in the sky, since you walked on by
I'm feelin high, got my imagination flickerin like hot flames
it's how it seems, you make me wanna ride the Coltrane to A Love Supreme
My brown lady, creates environments, for
happy brown babies, I know it sounds crazy
but your skin's the inspiration for cocoa butter
You provoke a brother we should get to know one another
I discover when I bring you through my people say TRUE, all I can say
is all praise due I thank you God for a beauty like you

*Mos Def singing*
[Mos] Brown skin lady
[Talib] Yes
[Mos] Where you goin
[Talib] This goes to the brown skin ladies
[Mos] Brown skin lady
[Talib] On the planet Earth today, yes
[Mos] What you doin?
[Mos] Brown skin lady
[Mos] How do you feel?

[Talib] I like the, I like the, I like the, I like the
way you walk, yes, I live the way you move
[Mos] I like the way you walk, when you walk on by
I like the way you move, I like the WAY you move
[Talib] I like the, I like the, I like the, I like the
way you walk, yes, please do that dance
[Mos] I like the way you walk, when you walk on by
I like the way you move, I like you baby

[together]
And everybody on the avenue, I know, when they see us sing
Everybody on the avenue, I know, when they see us sing, there she is

[Mos] There she is, she's a brown skinned lady
Such a brown skinned lady
She's a brown skinned lady
She's a brown skinned lady
She's a brown skinned lady
She's a brown skinned lady

[Talib]
You know what some people put themselves through
to look just like you?
Dark stocking, high heels, lipstick, alla that
You know what?
Without makeup you're beautiful
Whatcha you need to paint the next face for
We're not dealin with the European standard of beauty tonight
Turn off the TV and put the magazine away
In the mirror tell me what you see
See the evidence of divine presence
Women of the, Caribbean, they got the, golden sun
I know women on the continent got it
Nigeria, and Ghana, you know they got it
Tanzania, Namibia and Mozambique
and Botswana, to let it speak
about Latinas, Columbianas
...
Tallenas, of course the Brooklyn women walk that walk
And the Bronx women walk that walk
Honies from Queens walk that walk, NYC, ATL, LA
Cincinatti, the Bay Area...

: Underground Feb 26 2004, 02:49 PM

QUOTE (Moremi @ Feb 26 2004, 07:36 PM)
QUOTE (Underground @ Feb 25 2004, 11:02 PM)
QUOTE (Moremi @ Feb 26 2004, 01:35 AM)
listen to Brown Skin Lady by Black Star or For Women by Talib Kweli and Hi-Tek  embar.gif

check out Brown Skin Woman from KRS-ONE's 1993 album Return of the Boom Bap....

Thanks for posting that great song. KRS-One is amazing embar.gif Here are the lyrics from "For Women". I swear this song makes me cry sometimes cry.gif Sorry for the length but he has a lot to say.

thanks for that, and here's the original; Nina Simone's "Four Women"


My skin is black
My arms are long
My hair is woolly
My back is strong
Strong enough to take the pain
inflicted again and again
What do they call me
My name is AUNT SARAH
My name is Aunt Sarah

My skin is yellow
My hair is long
Between two worlds
I do belong
My father was rich and white
He forced my mother late one night
What do they call me
My name is SAFFRONIA
My name is Saffronia

My skin is tan
My hair is fine
My hips invite you
my mouth like wine
Whose little girl am I?
Anyone who has money to buy
What do they call me
My name is SWEET THING
My name is Sweet Thing

My skin is brown
my manner is tough
I'll kill the first mother I see
my life has been too rough
I'm awfully bitter these days
because my parents were slaves
What do they call me
My name is PEACHES

: Moremi Feb 27 2004, 11:42 AM

Thanks. I love Nina Simone smile2.gif and I love how Talib expanded the song. I know he had great admiration and respect for her. You can hear her mentioned or sampled in some of his other songs. Listen to both versions. They're awesome smile.gif

: Underground Feb 27 2004, 03:10 PM

QUOTE (Moremi @ Feb 27 2004, 07:42 PM)
Thanks. I love Nina Simone smile2.gif and I love how Talib expanded the song. I know he had great admiration and respect for her. You can hear her mentioned or sampled in some of his other songs. Listen to both versions. They're awesome smile.gif

how to get the Talib version?

: Moremi Feb 27 2004, 05:39 PM

QUOTE (Underground @ Feb 27 2004, 07:10 PM)
QUOTE (Moremi @ Feb 27 2004, 07:42 PM)
Thanks. I love Nina Simone smile2.gif and I love how Talib expanded the song. I know he had great admiration and respect for her. You can hear her mentioned or sampled in some of his other songs. Listen to both versions. They're awesome smile.gif

how to get the Talib version?

It's a hidden track on the album Train of Thought by Reflection Eternal (Talib and Hi Tek). Buy it, that album is awesome grin.gif

: Underground Feb 29 2004, 03:17 PM

I don't have much money for such things

: moocheke Feb 29 2004, 06:24 PM

QUOTE (joemomma86 @ Feb 19 2004, 11:10 PM)
fuck that stuckup bitch.

I HATE BLONDE HAIR ON THE BLACK WOMAN !
LEAVE THE HAIR NATURAL BE PROUD !!!!!!!!!

 

: Moremi Mar 1 2004, 05:08 AM

QUOTE (moocheke @ Feb 29 2004, 10:24 PM)
I HATE BLONDE HAIR ON THE BLACK WOMAN !
LEAVE THE HAIR NATURAL BE PROUD !!!!!!!!!

Why are black women being singled out? Are you black?
You know this thread is not just about black women dying their hair blonde or did you miss all the other posts in between. blink.gif

: moocheke96 Mar 1 2004, 04:29 PM

QUOTE (Moremi @ Feb 20 2004, 03:12 PM)
QUOTE (nerve @ Feb 20 2004, 01:54 PM)
Queen Latifah is on "Cover Girl" commercials aswell, i dont know why though, she's not sexy at all

I'm not trying to be rude but I'm not sure what your point is. huh.gif Latifah is also light skinned you know. The thing that is really different about her appearance is that she is full figured.

Also, I agree with the others, she is gorgeous and one of my favorite rappers tongue.gif

LATIFAH IS BEAUTIFUL CAUSE SHE IS STRONG ! she doesn't care about the fucking diva bullshit she is content with herself !

THAT IS A WOMEN ! a real one at that

: Moremi Mar 1 2004, 04:43 PM

QUOTE (moocheke96 @ Mar 1 2004, 08:29 PM)
QUOTE (Moremi @ Feb 20 2004, 03:12 PM)
QUOTE (nerve @ Feb 20 2004, 01:54 PM)
Queen Latifah is on "Cover Girl" commercials aswell, i dont know why though, she's not sexy at all

I'm not trying to be rude but I'm not sure what your point is. huh.gif Latifah is also light skinned you know. The thing that is really different about her appearance is that she is full figured.

Also, I agree with the others, she is gorgeous and one of my favorite rappers tongue.gif

LATIFAH IS BEAUTIFUL CAUSE SHE IS STRONG ! she doesn't care about the fucking diva bullshit she is content with herself !

THAT IS A WOMEN ! a real one at that

There's no doubt Latifah is a strong woman. I love her.
But you know, she doesn't wear her hair natural either...and she does lighten it from time to time wink.gif

: Moremi Mar 1 2004, 04:48 PM

Being strong or proud has nothing to do with the way you wear you hair. You have to look beyond that. If it's ok for Latifah, it should be ok for Beyonce, right? wrong? unsure.gif

: moocheke96 Mar 1 2004, 04:49 PM

QUOTE (Moremi @ Mar 1 2004, 05:08 AM)
QUOTE (moocheke @ Feb 29 2004, 10:24 PM)
I HATE BLONDE HAIR ON THE BLACK WOMAN !
LEAVE THE HAIR NATURAL BE PROUD !!!!!!!!!

Why are black women being singled out? Are you black?
You know this thread is not just about black women dying their hair blonde or did you miss all the other posts in between. blink.gif

BLACK WOMEN ARE NOT BEING SINGLED OUT HERE ! so don't make this sound like a hate issue ya know blk/wht shit. This is a point of view ya know our RIGHTS! and um...... you asked me if i was black ? Well maybe I AM and MAYBE I AM !

 __ ( 0 ) : 1
 

: moocheke96 Mar 1 2004, 04:53 PM

QUOTE (Moremi @ Mar 1 2004, 04:43 PM)
QUOTE (moocheke96 @ Mar 1 2004, 08:29 PM)
QUOTE (Moremi @ Feb 20 2004, 03:12 PM)
QUOTE (nerve @ Feb 20 2004, 01:54 PM)
Queen Latifah is on "Cover Girl" commercials aswell, i dont know why though, she's not sexy at all

I'm not trying to be rude but I'm not sure what your point is. huh.gif Latifah is also light skinned you know. The thing that is really different about her appearance is that she is full figured.

Also, I agree with the others, she is gorgeous and one of my favorite rappers tongue.gif

LATIFAH IS BEAUTIFUL CAUSE SHE IS STRONG ! she doesn't care about the fucking diva bullshit she is content with herself !

THAT IS A WOMEN ! a real one at that

There's no doubt Latifah is a strong woman. I love her.
But you know, she doesn't wear her hair natural either...and she does lighten it from time to time wink.gif

Regardless if she lightens her hair from time to time thats her right to do what she feels is nice !

: Moremi Mar 1 2004, 04:54 PM

QUOTE (moocheke96 @ Mar 1 2004, 08:49 PM)
QUOTE (Moremi @ Mar 1 2004, 05:08 AM)
QUOTE (moocheke @ Feb 29 2004, 10:24 PM)
I HATE BLONDE HAIR ON THE BLACK WOMAN !
LEAVE THE HAIR NATURAL BE PROUD !!!!!!!!!

Why are black women being singled out? Are you black?
You know this thread is not just about black women dying their hair blonde or did you miss all the other posts in between. blink.gif

BLACK WOMEN ARE NOT BEING SINGLED OUT HERE ! so don't make this sound like a hate issue ya know blk/wht shit. This is a point of view ya know our RIGHTS! and um...... you asked me if i was black ? Well maybe I AM and MAYBE I AM !

No one is making this sound like a hate issue so chill out. It seemed odd to me that you said you hate blonde hair on black women and added that black women are not proud if they aren't natural. That's utter bullshit. I can give you plenty examples of proud black women who aren't/weren't natural. I already mentioned Betty Shabazz. There's no doubt that she was a very proud black woman.

So is it just black women you feel this way about or do you also feel the same way about other races who go blonde....like Asians or Spanish people for example unsure.gif

: Moremi Mar 1 2004, 04:55 PM

QUOTE (moocheke96 @ Mar 1 2004, 08:53 PM)
QUOTE (Moremi @ Mar 1 2004, 04:43 PM)
QUOTE (moocheke96 @ Mar 1 2004, 08:29 PM)
QUOTE (Moremi @ Feb 20 2004, 03:12 PM)
QUOTE (nerve @ Feb 20 2004, 01:54 PM)
Queen Latifah is on "Cover Girl" commercials aswell, i dont know why though, she's not sexy at all

I'm not trying to be rude but I'm not sure what your point is. huh.gif Latifah is also light skinned you know. The thing that is really different about her appearance is that she is full figured.

Also, I agree with the others, she is gorgeous and one of my favorite rappers tongue.gif

LATIFAH IS BEAUTIFUL CAUSE SHE IS STRONG ! she doesn't care about the fucking diva bullshit she is content with herself !

THAT IS A WOMEN ! a real one at that

There's no doubt Latifah is a strong woman. I love her.
But you know, she doesn't wear her hair natural either...and she does lighten it from time to time wink.gif

Regardless if she lightens her hair from time to time thats her right to do what she feels is nice !

Ok so you don't hate blonde hair on black women....mmmk wacko.gif

: moocheke96 Mar 1 2004, 04:59 PM

QUOTE (Moremi @ Mar 1 2004, 05:08 AM)
QUOTE (moocheke @ Feb 29 2004, 10:24 PM)
I HATE BLONDE HAIR ON THE BLACK WOMAN !
LEAVE THE HAIR NATURAL BE PROUD !!!!!!!!!

Why are black women being singled out? Are you black?
You know this thread is not just about black women dying their hair blonde or did you miss all the other posts in between. blink.gif

BLACK WOMEN ARE NOT BEING SINGLED OUT HERE ! so don't make this sound like a hate issue ya know blk/wht shit. This is a point of view ya know our RIGHTS! and um...... you asked me if i was black ? Well maybe I AM and MAYBE I AM !

: Casbah Mar 1 2004, 05:14 PM

my hair is naturally black, occasionally ill bleach it, its not cus i wanna look any more european than i already am, i never even made the connection in my head between bleaching your hair and trying to be more european until i read this thread

: Moremi Mar 1 2004, 05:17 PM

^ Yeah, I saw that the first time and responded. Your post is still not making sense to me. Beyonce and Latifah are both beautiful women and I don't the think the way they wear the hair is any indication of how they feel about being black women. The majority of black women straighten their hair and have been doing so for decades. I agree that it's better to be natural but if you chose not be that doesn't mean you're not proud. And there are many people who are natural who couldn't give a fuck about their people.

: moocheke96 Mar 1 2004, 05:18 PM

QUOTE (Moremi @ Mar 1 2004, 04:54 PM)
QUOTE (moocheke96 @ Mar 1 2004, 08:49 PM)
QUOTE (Moremi @ Mar 1 2004, 05:08 AM)
QUOTE (moocheke @ Feb 29 2004, 10:24 PM)
I HATE BLONDE HAIR ON THE BLACK WOMAN !
LEAVE THE HAIR NATURAL BE PROUD !!!!!!!!!

Why are black women being singled out? Are you black?
You know this thread is not just about black women dying their hair blonde or did you miss all the other posts in between. blink.gif

BLACK WOMEN ARE NOT BEING SINGLED OUT HERE ! so don't make this sound like a hate issue ya know blk/wht shit. This is a point of view ya know our RIGHTS! and um...... you asked me if i was black ? Well maybe I AM and MAYBE I AM !

No one is making this sound like a hate issue so chill out. It seemed odd to me that you said you hate blonde hair on black women and added that black women are not proud if they aren't natural. That's utter bullshit. I can give you plenty examples of proud black women who aren't/weren't natural. I already mentioned Betty Shabazz. There's no doubt that she was a very proud black woman.

So is it just black women you feel this way about or do you also feel the same way about other races who go blonde....like Asians or Spanish people for example unsure.gif

BEYONCE is drop dead beautiful ! as we all know and i am not gonna CHILL !
just to let you know my grand mother said that about black women should leave there hair natural i say it also, MY GRAND MOTHER IS BLACK and american indian my grandad is 100 percent narraganssett indian OH yes and my mom is latina and pequot indian so i don't no what the big deal is. Bo derek wore her hair in corn rows and loved to tan ! I love my self and the way i look i am WHO I AM ! so maybe you have some issues about YOU OWN APPEARENCE !

: Moremi Mar 1 2004, 05:25 PM

QUOTE (moocheke96 @ Mar 1 2004, 09:18 PM)
QUOTE (Moremi @ Mar 1 2004, 04:54 PM)
QUOTE (moocheke96 @ Mar 1 2004, 08:49 PM)
QUOTE (Moremi @ Mar 1 2004, 05:08 AM)
QUOTE (moocheke @ Feb 29 2004, 10:24 PM)
I HATE BLONDE HAIR ON THE BLACK WOMAN !
LEAVE THE HAIR NATURAL BE PROUD !!!!!!!!!

Why are black women being singled out? Are you black?
You know this thread is not just about black women dying their hair blonde or did you miss all the other posts in between. blink.gif

BLACK WOMEN ARE NOT BEING SINGLED OUT HERE ! so don't make this sound like a hate issue ya know blk/wht shit. This is a point of view ya know our RIGHTS! and um...... you asked me if i was black ? Well maybe I AM and MAYBE I AM !

No one is making this sound like a hate issue so chill out. It seemed odd to me that you said you hate blonde hair on black women and added that black women are not proud if they aren't natural. That's utter bullshit. I can give you plenty examples of proud black women who aren't/weren't natural. I already mentioned Betty Shabazz. There's no doubt that she was a very proud black woman.

So is it just black women you feel this way about or do you also feel the same way about other races who go blonde....like Asians or Spanish people for example unsure.gif

BEYONCE is drop dead beautiful ! as we all know and i am not gonna CHILL !
just to let you know my grand mother said that about black women should leave there hair natural i say it also, MY GRAND MOTHER IS BLACK and american indian my grandad is 100 percent narraganssett indian OH yes and my mom is latina and pequot indian so i don't no what the big deal is. Bo derek wore her hair in corn rows and loved to tan ! I love my self and the way i look i am WHO I AM ! so maybe you have some issues about YOU OWN APPEARENCE !

I don't have issues about my own appearance. I'm 100% black and proud and beautiful. Wouldn't change myself for the world rolleyes.gif Personally, I think that people should love themselves the way they are but making a blanket statement, like black people who aren't natural aren't proud is very offensive to me. I don't care who said it, you posted it huh.gif

: Metzli Mar 1 2004, 05:36 PM

I sense the tension girls!!!


Woooooooooooooooooooooo!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!





tongue.gif


Chillax!!

: Moremi Mar 1 2004, 05:43 PM

I'm not tense rolleyes.gif Just trying to get an honest feel of where people are coming from and sharing my own opinions...that's all.

tongue.gif

: Metzli Mar 1 2004, 05:45 PM

I guess that's why they call it the HOT seat!!!



Oh it's HOT LIKE FIRE!!

: Moremi Mar 1 2004, 05:46 PM

laughing.gif
...and then some.

: moocheke Mar 1 2004, 06:28 PM

QUOTE (Moremi @ Feb 23 2004, 02:01 AM)
Hey Sarah,

Ok, because when you said she was trying to be white, I took that to mean she wasn't proud of who she was. But I agree some people do it for the reasons you've stated. Lil Kim is a perfect example of that. She has even said that she dyes her hair and wears contacts because all her life she's been told that blonde hair and blue eyes is what's beautiful. She also refers to herself as a black barbie. blink.gif I suspect that Beyonce is smarter than that and she's just "playing the game", like her fiance and advisor, Jay Z, doing whatever it takes to make the money. I think some entertainers make decisions regarding their appearance because they know it will get them further and not because they actually think that's what's beautiful. Same with the working class. I know people who want to go natural or lock their hair but can't because it's not acceptable in their profession. I don't know, I would love to ask Beyonce why.

you don't even no that!

: Moremi Mar 1 2004, 06:33 PM

Don't know what? That Lil Kim has self esteem issues? Yes I do. She said it herself. Or that Beyonce is playing the game? You right I don't know. I said I don't. What's your point? It's just what I suspect. I think she's a proud black woman, she's engaged to a black man (not that necessarily makes her prouder) and she's volunteered her time to do things to help her people. Like AIDS awareness in Africa. She doesn't come off to me like a Lil Kim. She seems to be aware of who she is.

: moocheke Mar 1 2004, 06:45 PM

QUOTE (Moremi @ Mar 1 2004, 09:25 PM)
QUOTE (moocheke96 @ Mar 1 2004, 09:18 PM)
QUOTE (Moremi @ Mar 1 2004, 04:54 PM)
QUOTE (moocheke96 @ Mar 1 2004, 08:49 PM)
QUOTE (Moremi @ Mar 1 2004, 05:08 AM)
QUOTE (moocheke @ Feb 29 2004, 10:24 PM)
I HATE BLONDE HAIR ON THE BLACK WOMAN !
LEAVE THE HAIR NATURAL BE PROUD !!!!!!!!!

Why are black women being singled out? Are you black?
You know this thread is not just about black women dying their hair blonde or did you miss all the other posts in between. blink.gif

BLACK WOMEN ARE NOT BEING SINGLED OUT HERE ! so don't make this sound like a hate issue ya know blk/wht shit. This is a point of view ya know our RIGHTS! and um...... you asked me if i was black ? Well maybe I AM and MAYBE I AM !

No one is making this sound like a hate issue so chill out. It seemed odd to me that you said you hate blonde hair on black women and added that black women are not proud if they aren't natural. That's utter bullshit. I can give you plenty examples of proud black women who aren't/weren't natural. I already mentioned Betty Shabazz. There's no doubt that she was a very proud black woman.

So is it just black women you feel this way about or do you also feel the same way about other races who go blonde....like Asians or Spanish people for example unsure.gif

BEYONCE is drop dead beautiful ! as we all know and i am not gonna CHILL !
just to let you know my grand mother said that about black women should leave there hair natural i say it also, MY GRAND MOTHER IS BLACK and american indian my grandad is 100 percent narraganssett indian OH yes and my mom is latina and pequot indian so i don't no what the big deal is. Bo derek wore her hair in corn rows and loved to tan ! I love my self and the way i look i am WHO I AM ! so maybe you have some issues about YOU OWN APPEARENCE !

I don't have issues about my own appearance. I'm 100% black and proud and beautiful. Wouldn't change myself for the world rolleyes.gif Personally, I think that people should love themselves the way they are but making a blanket statement, like black people who aren't natural aren't proud is very offensive to me. I don't care who said it, you posted it huh.gif

such is life.........................................nowjust go to sleep ! wink.gif

: Moremi Mar 1 2004, 06:47 PM

No thanks. In the words of ZDLR, "Wake up!" rolleyes.gif

: zapatista Mar 1 2004, 07:01 PM

what are you talking about moocheke? you trying to get your post count up? unsure.gif

: Metzli Mar 1 2004, 07:14 PM

^ laughing.gif



Looks like it!! rolleyes.gif

: moocheke Mar 1 2004, 07:50 PM

QUOTE (Sulley @ Feb 20 2004, 11:12 AM)
i don't have a problem with beyonce. But then again i don't watch too much tv so i don't know how 'stuckup' some of you guys say she is. I think she is really beautiful and has a great talent.


but she did suck in austin powers 3 tongue.gif

What did she suck?

: moocheke Mar 1 2004, 07:52 PM

QUOTE (zapatista @ Mar 1 2004, 11:01 PM)
what are you talking about moocheke? you trying to get your post count up? unsure.gif

Oh yes, Oh yes it means so fucking much to me w00t.gif

: Casbah Mar 1 2004, 07:58 PM

only ten more! HURRY!!! QUICK!!! start an argument!!! it should provide you with a number of chances to get the next 10 posts in!!!

: moocheke Mar 1 2004, 08:23 PM

QUOTE (Moremi @ Feb 21 2004, 02:10 PM)
QUOTE (Underground @ Feb 21 2004, 01:57 PM)
but clearly the important issue to simultaneously address is whether white guys only show or describe particularly white women.

otherwise it is pointless

I edited my last post during your reply but anyway...

I think that white women of all shades, hair type and eye color are well represented in media. But black women who are embraced by the mainstream and viewed as beautiful usually look more European. That's the issue.

rolleyes.gif Dam you should be a lawyer ! smile.gif no you really get to the deep and go on and on and on..................................................

: moocheke Mar 1 2004, 08:26 PM

QUOTE (casbah rebel @ Mar 1 2004, 11:58 PM)
only ten more! HURRY!!! QUICK!!! start an argument!!! it should provide you with a number of chances to get the next 10 posts in!!!

This is discussion what did you expect ? pms gives it a little UMPH!!!
IT IS NOT ABOUT GETTING THE POSTS IN !

: Moremi Mar 1 2004, 08:26 PM

^ Very content being an artist. Thank you smile.gif

I'll just leave you alone to continue talking to yourself wavenew.gif

: moocheke Mar 1 2004, 08:29 PM

QUOTE (moocheke @ Mar 2 2004, 12:26 AM)
QUOTE (casbah rebel @ Mar 1 2004, 11:58 PM)
only ten more! HURRY!!! QUICK!!! start an argument!!! it should provide you with a number of chances to get the next 10 posts in!!!

This is discussion what did you expect ? pms gives it a little UMPH!!!
IT IS NOT ABOUT GETTING THE POSTS IN !

only ten more?

: Casbah Mar 1 2004, 08:36 PM

eh, nevermind......well, at the time i typed that you had 40 posts, 10 more gives you access to the media section, some people just start posting random bullshit to hit 50 and raid the media section.. nevermind.....im just bein a jackass grin.gif

: zapatista Mar 1 2004, 08:36 PM

Hey moocheke... what the heck set you off.. why don't you try being a little less insulting. wink.gif

: moocheke Mar 1 2004, 08:57 PM

QUOTE (zapatista @ Mar 2 2004, 12:36 AM)
Hey moocheke... what the heck set you off.. why don't you try being a little less insulting. wink.gif

huh.gif Insulting sorry you took it that way DAM !

: Moremi Mar 1 2004, 09:01 PM

Not insulted. She should be able to say whatever she wants as long as it's contributing to the advancement of this discussion. This has been going on for over two pages now and nothing has come out of it.

: moocheke Mar 1 2004, 09:03 PM

QUOTE (casbah rebel @ Mar 2 2004, 12:36 AM)
eh, nevermind......well, at the time i typed that you had 40 posts, 10 more gives you access to the media section, some people just start posting random bullshit to hit 50 and raid the media section.. nevermind.....im just bein a jackass grin.gif

No your not being a jack ass I DO LIKE YOUR AVITAR ! w00t.gif

: zapatista Mar 1 2004, 09:11 PM

QUOTE (Moremi @ Mar 2 2004, 12:01 AM)
Not insulted. She should be able to say whatever she wants as long as it's contributing to the advancement of this discussion. This has been going on for over two pages now and nothing has come out of it.

yea, that's basicly what I'm saying. smile.gif

does this europen standerd of beauty that is being pushed on minority women apply to men as well? cause as far as I have ever seen a man of any color can be found attractive without having to change his look... I really can't think of a male Equivalent to Beyonce. dunno.gif

: Sara Mar 1 2004, 09:25 PM

yeah i was wondering bout that too, where do the men fall in this debate?



ps. i saw two extra pages and i got excited thinking the topic went somewhere....but no it hadnt...thanks moocheek.

: Metzli Mar 1 2004, 09:35 PM

WTF???????



wacko.gif





tongue.gif

: Casbah Mar 1 2004, 11:15 PM

i put up a male opinion a couple of times scattered about this thread sarah

: zapatista Mar 1 2004, 11:24 PM

yea, i'm not talking about a male opinon.. i'm talking about do the same standards of beauty that are placed on "minority" women.. apply to "minority" males as well?

: Sara Mar 2 2004, 01:14 AM

QUOTE (zapatista @ Mar 2 2004, 08:24 PM)
yea, i'm not talking about a male opinon.. i'm talking about do the same standards of beauty that are placed on "minority" women.. apply to "minority" males as well?

well, i dont know what black guys do...to be honest, i've never seen a black guy trying to be white...so i dont know..


but i can speak of some of the korean teenagers here in NZ, it seems very very common amongst them (boys and girls) to dye their hair blonde. now i know we said that ppl who dye their hair blonde arent trying to be white, but there r certain ideas associated with blonde hair and i think lots of ppl buy into these ideas, and think blonde is prettier. although i cant say for sure why those korean kids do that...i mean they dress korean (not traditional wear) but they dress distinctively, it's almost like a dress code, they have certain style of baggy pants they were, and pleated skirts, baggy jumpers, dressy shoes over shorts...they really have their own style, and they only hang round each other, they r a very tight group and they only speak korean to each other.

i dont want to over simplify the matters, this is of course a generalisaion coz not all korean kids do that, but alot of them do...alot.

anyhoot, i hope that helped a bit? unsure.gif

: Metzli Mar 2 2004, 01:28 AM

I get what you're saying sarah tongue.gif

: Moremi Mar 2 2004, 06:15 AM

Black men experience some of the things minority women do. Black men used to straighten or conk their hair (some still do), then there was the gheri curl, then texturizing, which is still popular. You can see the ads in just about any black fashion magazine. Some even dye their hair. Right now, Sisqo and Dennis Rodman come to mind lol they went blonde. Dennis has been rather open about the way he was treated growing up because of his looks and the pain that caused him. I don't know which one made it popular but there was a period when a lot of brothers were dying their fros blonde or a sandy brown ermm.gif Also, skin bleaching is something that's done by men and women. However, I don't think minority men are effected the same way their women are. Maybe because men are taught not to be as concerned with these things but are more concerned with acquiring power and prestige dunno.gif And women like powerful men, which is one of the reasons pro athletes get so much attention because they don't really look that good. rolleyes.gif I've tried talking about this with my male friends and discovered guys don't like to talk about this stuff tongue.gif But one of them pointed out to me, that when a black man is viewed as a sex symbol, he's usually really buff and defined, like Tyson Beckford, Shemar Moore, etc. But that's not the case with white men. A white guy can be sexy and he doesn't have to be well built. White men are also valued for their intellect. Black men, however, are appreciated more for their physical and athletic abilities and their humor. It seems like they are either really sexualized or demonized...hope that makes sense blink.gif

There's a song on the Kanye West album, where he says something like, 'I'm here to make sure those light skinned guys never go back in fashion.' That's not the first time I've heard someone say that -- that light skinned men are "in fashion", or dark skinned men are "in fashion." It says something about how we see ourselves being portrayed in the media. When I look back, I do see a trend, where black models went from being light to dark, then back to light and now we seem to be embracing dark models again. But it's not something I believe is going to last. I think it's a fashion trend ermm.gif If society was really embracing us, I think we would see more of it everywhere and not just on the runway.

This is an area I haven't really given a lot of thought hmm.gif You mentioned the Korean teens in NZ but I don't see anything like that here. Very interesting. I'm going to think about this more.

: Moremi Mar 2 2004, 06:50 PM

Or maybe it's just that women are objectified more...we are expected to change things about ourselves that men don't have too dunno.gif

: Sara Mar 2 2004, 09:57 PM

QUOTE (Moremi @ Mar 3 2004, 03:15 AM)
that when a black man is viewed as a sex symbol, he's usually really buff and defined, like Tyson Beckford, Shemar Moore, etc. But that's not the case with white men. A white guy can be sexy and he doesn't have to be well built. White men are also valued for their intellect. Black men, however, are appreciated more for their physical and athletic abilities and their humor. It seems like they are either really sexualized or demonized...hope that makes sense blink.gif


u know, that is very true in the american media! like when we see black actors in those mediocre action/comedy films, black men in it are well built, good looking, smooth with women/or with too much sex on the brain, and alot of them are not very smart, they may have common sense, but they are not smart or intellectual u know? and they are always goofy, and clowny. that pisses me off.

demonized yep for sure, and it was far more explicit decades ago, i think now script-writers are becoming a little more sneaky bout it and are being very subtle, thu they dont seem to be fooling us laugh.gif but u know what i mean? like dad speaks of movies he used to watch and he says that it was blatantly stated in these movies that black men are drunk violant rapists they're the junkies and dealers and murders and all of that crap, and in a way it's still present today, but it's done so it seems um more true? coz it's very subtle, and ppl sometimes are unaware of these lies being fed to them.

: nerve Mar 3 2004, 12:48 AM

QUOTE (Sarah @ Mar 3 2004, 05:57 AM)
with too much sex on the brain

I think that true about everyman not just black men.

later [edited]

: Sara Mar 3 2004, 12:58 AM

QUOTE (nerve @ Mar 3 2004, 09:48 PM)
QUOTE (Sarah @ Mar 3 2004, 05:57 AM)
with too much sex on the brain

I think that true about everyman not just black men.


yeah but this is not how every man is represented in the media.

: Moremi Mar 3 2004, 06:38 AM

QUOTE (nerve @ Mar 3 2004, 04:48 AM)
later my ******

mellow.gif

Was that supposed to funny? Or insulting?
Whatever your intentions were, it just came off as being incredibly insensitive to me...

: Sara Mar 3 2004, 04:09 PM

ok so i think it has been clarified to me...

nerve, u cant use words like that ok? i'm not sure how ur brain works...but u seem to enjoy making comments like that...and this is like ur 3rd time... so please please have some respect and stop that crap.

: nerve Mar 3 2004, 11:49 PM

QUOTE (Sarah @ Mar 4 2004, 12:09 AM)
nerve, u cant use words like that ok? i'm not sure how ur brain works...but u seem to enjoy making comments like that...and this is like ur 3rd time... so please please have some respect and stop that crap.

Didn't mean to cause any "emotional distress", sorry though if i offend anyone.

: Turd Ferguson Mar 5 2004, 01:00 PM

Not to veer too off topic...........but when I was in the Philippines, there was this full bombardment of "white equals sex appeal". There are gobs upon gobs of beauty products from every cosmetic brand name (and I do mean every) that is aimed toward whitening the naturally tan (kayumanggi in the Tagalog dialect) Filipina skin.

Even one huge billboard off an overpass said "Mas puti, mas kissable!" (If you're more white, you're more kissable!). This is the absolute worst neo-colonialist remnant I've seen. Every Filipina is beautiful, even with their natural indigenous skin tone!

A lot of Filipinas in the islands are so dissatisfied with their looks because of this whole "white bombardment". Man, colonialism is still pretty prominent there. cry.gif

To be honest, I wanna be more tan....I'd like to have nicely toasted indigenous skin and not this mestiza colonial tone!!!

: Metzli Mar 5 2004, 04:31 PM

Awww.. I know what your saying!!! I want a tan now.. cool.gif I wanna be DARK BROWN..



haha this just popped into my head..

"Some say the blacker the berry the sweeter the juice... I say the blacker the flesh the deeper the roots.."
Gotta love 2pac...

: Manifest Mar 5 2004, 06:40 PM

^ afro1.gif WORD!!!

: Casbah Mar 5 2004, 07:21 PM

if your white, your more kissable?

not only is that racist, but its just not true, and i can personally attest to this, having not made out with anyone in over a year and a half myself....

: Sara Mar 5 2004, 07:29 PM

QUOTE (kawaii_buttercup @ Mar 6 2004, 10:00 AM)
Even one huge billboard off an overpass said "Mas puti, mas kissable!" (If you're more white, you're more kissable!)

this is so offensive....like i dont even know where to begin......and it's just so ironic...considering most phillipinos have the olive skin....i mean what the fuck?!!!

: ozorage Mar 5 2004, 08:31 PM

QUOTE (Rage-Babe @ Mar 5 2004, 07:31 PM)
Awww.. I know what your saying!!! I want a tan now.. cool.gif I wanna be DARK BROWN..



haha this just popped into my head..

"Some say the blacker the berry the sweeter the juice... I say the blacker the flesh the deeper the roots.."
Gotta love 2pac...

si, that popped into my head tambien! grin.gif



yo. so i missed a lot in this topic and i'm just pickin up on this last page here so i dunno if i'm repeating shit or not... aaaaaanyway..

...there's such a focus on it being "wrong" for people wanting to whiten themselves.... yet it's completely cool when i, like rage-babe, wanna be darker... like i was just saying again today... that i feel so sick in the winter cuz i just feel so pale and blaaaaaaaaaaa and like that's not my TRUE color or something like that....

....we keep talking about how much we love our tanned skin... and always hearing stuff like "I'm a beautiful BLACK woman!" ... BUT... if some chick were to blurt out something about her being a "Strong, independent, beautiful WHITE woman" we'd all have the ohno.gif face... at least i would... kinda like... " ohno.gif ooooook? huh.gif ... laughing.gif " ... just being honest... not trying to be disrespectful at all... i just know that it would catch me waaaay off guard and i really wouldn't know how to react.... anyone have any idea what the heck i'm tryin to say here....

i mean. i know my history. and i know this and that and the other thing... so you can give the background info once again if you so choose... but i'm just sayin... i KNOW people react mad different to each...

black chick = strong
white chick = conceited

know what i'm sayin? or is this just me? i'm a little wacko.gif right now... so yea.

huh.gif





: Metzli Mar 5 2004, 11:55 PM

I know exactly what you're saying..


Pero, think about this... WHITE has always "been" beautiful and blah blah blah... when had Dark skin been appreaciated?? When we do.. it's because it goes against the idea that just "white" is beautiful. It's going against the norm. SO I. for example want to be darker because I think that is beautiful, and I know it is. But i think that it's prefectly fine to want to go bak to your roots and appreaciate that about ones roots. I know what you're saying I dunno if what I'm saying makes sense pero, wacko.gif tu sabes!!


v.gif

: nerve Mar 6 2004, 12:08 AM

QUOTE (Rage-Babe @ Mar 6 2004, 07:55 AM)
I know exactly what you're saying..


Pero, think about this... WHITE has always "been" beautiful and blah blah blah... when had Dark skin been appreaciated?? When we do.. it's because it goes against the idea that just "white" is beautiful. It's going against the norm. SO I. for example want to be darker because I think that is beautiful, and I know it is. But i think that it's prefectly fine to want to go bak to your roots and appreaciate that about ones roots. I know what you're saying I dunno if what I'm saying makes sense pero, wacko.gif tu sabes!!


v.gif

Let me reworth that for you:

White's are blah blah blah, Dark is beautiful if you're a rebel, i want to be dark, it's ok to go back to your roots.

wink.gif

: Metzli Mar 6 2004, 12:48 AM

Don't misinterpret what I'm saying, there's nothing wrong with white people or white skin, It's just that It's what is seen as BEAUTIFUL and DARK SKIN isn't appreaciated for what it is, the reason I said "blah, blah, blah" is because I didn't see a point in reiterating what was before... I don't see what's wrong with one wanting to look as they already do and be proud of it, instead of having to feel ashamed that they are not ideally Beautiful.

Nerve, don't put words into my mouth. blackhair.gif

: nerve Mar 6 2004, 01:08 PM

QUOTE (Rage-Babe @ Mar 6 2004, 08:48 AM)
Nerve, don't put words into my mouth. blackhair.gif

I was just joking around.

: Metzli Mar 6 2004, 04:34 PM

Alright then.. tongue.gif


blackhair.gif

: Underground Mar 6 2004, 08:46 PM

you ******* *** *******!!!!!!

: Metzli Mar 6 2004, 08:50 PM

QUOTE (Underground @ Mar 6 2004, 08:46 PM)
you ******* *** *******!!!!!!

huh.gif

: zapatista Mar 6 2004, 08:53 PM

back on topic please. blackhair.gif

: Moremi Mar 6 2004, 09:28 PM

QUOTE (nerve @ Mar 4 2004, 03:49 AM)
Didn't mean to cause any "emotional distress", sorry though if i offend anyone.

Surrre. You didn't cause any "emotional distress" but had you said this to my face though it would have been a different story. I don't know of any people in their right mind who refer to people that way. But you say it wasn't intentional, so I'll leave it at that wink.gif

: Casbah Mar 6 2004, 09:32 PM

buddy, you better watch yer language, 'specially in fronta the ladies!

: Moremi Mar 6 2004, 09:39 PM

QUOTE (kawaii_buttercup @ Mar 5 2004, 05:00 PM)
Not to veer too off topic...........but when I was in the Philippines, there was this full bombardment of "white equals sex appeal". There are gobs upon gobs of beauty products from every cosmetic brand name (and I do mean every) that is aimed toward whitening the naturally tan (kayumanggi in the Tagalog dialect) Filipina skin.

Even one huge billboard off an overpass said "Mas puti, mas kissable!" (If you're more white, you're more kissable!). This is the absolute worst neo-colonialist remnant I've seen. Every Filipina is beautiful, even with their natural indigenous skin tone!

A lot of Filipinas in the islands are so dissatisfied with their looks because of this whole "white bombardment". Man, colonialism is still pretty prominent there. cry.gif

To be honest, I wanna be more tan....I'd like to have nicely toasted indigenous skin and not this mestiza colonial tone!!!

Thanks for sharing that story buttercup.

Same is true in Africa. Colonialism has really brainwashed a lot of Africans into thinking that they are ugly and undesireable. I've seen people bleach their skin nearly white. You can usually tell when someone is doing this because a lot of times they develop lesions and keloids on their skin. Or the color of their face doesn't match the rest of their body, like their arms and hands or neck wacko.gif These products are dangerous and unhealthy ermm.gif

: zapatista Mar 6 2004, 09:42 PM

It's kind of ironic tho.. because most white girls I know.. go to the tanning bed till they turn to leather. blink.gif

: Casbah Mar 6 2004, 09:50 PM

what are the brands making these products, or advertising them? itd be pretty shocking if they were also brands that are common and popular here in america.

i have a magazine called adbusters that has alot of stuff about this in it, i wish i had access to a scanner so i could show yall, the issue was called cool fascismo, if any of you know what im talking about..

: Moremi Mar 6 2004, 10:03 PM

QUOTE (ozorage @ Mar 6 2004, 12:31 AM)
...there's such a focus on it being "wrong" for people wanting to whiten themselves.... yet it's completely cool when i, like rage-babe, wanna be darker... like i was just saying again today... that i feel so sick in the winter cuz i just feel so pale and blaaaaaaaaaaa and like that's not my TRUE color or something like that....

Well, the reasons for doing it are different. A tan is temporary and it's natural. It's something that happens to just about everyone when they spend time in the sun. But skin bleaching is not and it's very unhealthy and it's mostly done out of hatred for your color. If you've seen the stuff people put themselves through bleaching their skin...sores, lesions, etc., it's pure self hate.
QUOTE
....we keep talking about how much we love our tanned skin... and always hearing stuff like "I'm a beautiful BLACK woman!" ... BUT... if some chick were to blurt out something about her being a "Strong, independent, beautiful WHITE woman" we'd all have the  ohno.gif face... at least i would... kinda like... "  ohno.gif  ooooook?  huh.gif  ...  laughing.gif  " ... just being honest... not trying to be disrespectful at all... i just know that it would catch me waaaay off guard and i really wouldn't know how to react.... anyone have any idea what the heck i'm tryin to say here....

i mean. i know my history. and i know this and that and the other thing... so you can give the background info once again if you so choose... but i'm just sayin... i KNOW people react mad different to each...

black chick = strong
white chick = conceited

know what i'm sayin? or is this just me? i'm a little  wacko.gif right now... so yea.

huh.gif

I wouldn't necessarily think she was conceited. It depends on what she looked like laughing.gif

: Sara Mar 6 2004, 10:21 PM

well the idea of tan is very very commercial and generic...and it's funny coz if ur black or very brown the idea of tan being a sexy beauiful thing won't apply to u...coz ur not tanned, ur naturally dark..so even tan excludes darker women...


maybe im just rambling, but do u guys get what im saying?

: Moremi Mar 6 2004, 10:28 PM

QUOTE (casbah rebel @ Mar 7 2004, 01:50 AM)
what are the brands making these products, or advertising them? itd be pretty shocking if they were also brands that are common and popular here in america.

i have a magazine called adbusters that has alot of stuff about this in it, i wish i had access to a scanner so i could show yall, the issue was called cool fascismo, if any of you know what im talking about..

They are sold in the US in grocery and cosmetic stores. If you do a search on the net for skin lightening or bleaching creams you should be able to find manufacturers. There's also skin lightening pills. Found this in a quick search http://www.skinwhite.com.
Listen to this ladies testimonial:
"To be true, your high prices shocked me. I have to use up nearly half of my salary to buy "Skin White Serum". Luckily, it turns out to be a good investment. My complexion has lightened by about 2 to 3 shades over the last 6 months. My friends and relatives thought that I have done some surgery on my skin. They were very surprised that my lighter skin is because of "Skin White Serum". I am very happy about the results but I will be even happier if you can start selling "Skin White Serum" in India markets. In this way, I can save a lot on the shipping charges! Also, is there a possibility that the prices will be reduced in the near future?"
Half her salary...just to be whiter...wtf ermm.gif

: Moremi Mar 6 2004, 10:51 PM

QUOTE (Sarah @ Mar 7 2004, 02:21 AM)
well the idea of tan is very very commercial and generic...and it's funny coz if ur black or very brown the idea of tan being a sexy beauiful thing won't apply to u...coz ur not tanned, ur naturally dark..so even tan excludes darker women...


maybe im just rambling, but do u guys get what im saying?

Yeah I think I know what you mean. It's odd because when a white person tans it's attractive but people who are naturally that color are not viewed the same way...bizarre...

: Sara Mar 6 2004, 10:52 PM

^i know!!! it really is odd...and it only enforces the idea that white is where it's at...coz even when they offer solutions to beauty and fashion and all of that, most of the time, it is for white skin.

speaking of cosmetics, u guys remmeber few years ago, well it must've been 8 years ago or something like that, when Naomi Campbell did this Lipstick ad, and the company digitally made her white?! she WAS WHITE i swear, like pale almost...wearing some kick ass red lipstick, which was nice, but daaaamn go white?! blink.gif


: Moremi Mar 6 2004, 11:22 PM

^ Wow. That's crazy...blue contacts and this? blink.gif ermm.gif

: Casbah Mar 7 2004, 12:04 AM

was she "white" or just lightened? thats wierd either way.....kinda like that commercial where they digitally animated christopher reeves walking....blah

: RATMROXMYSOX Mar 15 2004, 12:35 PM

QUOTE (Moremi @ Mar 7 2004, 06:51 AM)

Yeah I think I know what you mean. It's odd because when a white person tans it's attractive but people who are naturally that color are not viewed the same way...bizarre...

I know. that's not fair! i'm naturally brown. and when i don't get any sun i'm still considered "tan" to my white friends. they are all like, "oh i love your tan" it's not a tan damn you! i was friggin' born this way! zmat2.gif

: Moremi Mar 15 2004, 12:57 PM

Someone sent me a link this the other day but the site is temporarily down now. Check this out:

QUOTE
LIGHT SKIN PEOPLE UNITE: And they do so under new website's banner.

(Jun. 24, 2003) *So, you think black folks are the only people that are color struck. Well, read on. Lightskinpeople.com is an online community that is aimed at bringing together lightskin people from all round the world.
Jarvis Rome, the 24-year-old entrepreneur behind Lightskinpeople.com, is, in his words, targeting a "highly desirable but completely overlooked niche market."

Launched this summer, Lightskinpeople.com has already attracted thousands of visitors. Jarvis hopes it will quickly grow into the preeminent community for North America’s and international.

"Our ultimate goal is to make Lightkskinpeople.com the most innovative and reliable source of information, entertainment and community for lightskin people."

(Yeah, uh huh.)
http://www.eurweb.com/articles/headlines/06242003/headlines1033006242003.cfm

What a shame blackhair.gif

: Moremi Mar 15 2004, 01:09 PM

QUOTE (RATMROXMYSOX @ Mar 15 2004, 04:35 PM)
QUOTE (Moremi @ Mar 7 2004, 06:51 AM)

Yeah I think I know what you mean. It's odd because when a white person tans it's attractive but people who are naturally that color are not viewed the same way...bizarre...

I know. that's not fair! i'm naturally brown. and when i don't get any sun i'm still considered "tan" to my white friends. they are all like, "oh i love your tan" it's not a tan damn you! i was friggin' born this way! zmat2.gif

They were probably trying to compliment you but people really should think before they say. I was at the beach once and a guy told me he liked my tan and I was like "WTF huh.gif "

: Straycat Mar 15 2004, 01:13 PM

damn...i wanna have tan....i get so pale in winter... sad.gif ...

: RATMROXMYSOX Mar 15 2004, 01:20 PM

That was such a disturbing site...i can't imagine not being brown...it's what makes me stand out from all my pale friends! not saying that there's anything wrong with being pale. i just don't like being pale, but am i weird for getting annoyed when my light friends keep calling me dark when i'm at my lightest tone? although i don't like to be light...but i guess being a vampire doesn't help when you want to be a little darker.

: Straycat Mar 15 2004, 01:26 PM

i hate being pale... sad.gif

maybe i'm not THAT pale, i'm even quite dark as for a pale person...but shit it's still PALE!!!!!!!! mad.gif


....i need sun....

: RATMROXMYSOX Mar 15 2004, 01:31 PM

QUOTE (Straycat @ Mar 15 2004, 09:26 PM)


maybe i'm not THAT pale, i'm even quite dark as for a pale person...



that sentence was so contradictory tongue.gif but yeah, it does suck to be pale.

: Straycat Mar 15 2004, 01:34 PM

QUOTE
it does suck to be pale


hey thanx...... ermm.gif

: RATMROXMYSOX Mar 15 2004, 01:46 PM

QUOTE (Straycat @ Mar 15 2004, 09:34 PM)
QUOTE
it does suck to be pale


hey thanx...... ermm.gif

I'm sorry! i didn't mean it that way...i'm just saying i don't really enjoy being pale. please don't be mad at me. cry.gif

: Straycat Mar 15 2004, 01:50 PM

QUOTE
I'm sorry! i didn't mean it that way...i'm just saying i don't really enjoy being pale. please don't be mad at me.



smile.gif i'm not wavenew.gif ....being pale really sucks tongue.gif

i'm just waiting for summer....you know, i can get really dark in summer... shifty.gif



: RATMROXMYSOX Mar 15 2004, 01:57 PM

Aah, the shifty eyes explain everything. Well, I haven't been out much, and i'm quite pale...So how you doin'?::best Joey impersonation::

: RATMROXMYSOX Mar 15 2004, 01:58 PM

To answer the question from the topic, what's beautiful is loving the skin you were born with. there. ::tone of finality::

: RATMROXMYSOX Mar 15 2004, 02:01 PM

LOL the damn flood control got me! now i only have to wait 15 seconds...those were the longest 15 seconds of my life....longer than when i faced that tiger in the cage at the zoo where i worked at...i have a wild imagination! but yeah....i like ot post! and damnit, nobody's gonna stop me from posting 3 in a row! except maybe cosmic, but that cat is awesome. tongue.gif

: Straycat Mar 15 2004, 02:01 PM

QUOTE
To answer the question from the topic, what's beautiful is loving the skin you were born with



...yea you're right blackhair.gif




but we can slightly improve what mother nature gave us, right shifty.gif

: RATMROXMYSOX Mar 15 2004, 02:06 PM

Like how? i like to draw stars on my hand a lot...does that count? i also dye the front part of my naturally dark brown hair to red.

: Straycat Mar 15 2004, 02:10 PM

i have highlights ( huh.gif or howdoyacallit)...my hair is quite multicolored right now.. tongue.gif

: RATMROXMYSOX Mar 15 2004, 02:16 PM

That's awesome! i remember in the 4th grade i wanted to dye my hair purple. and my mom hates my red hair.

: Straycat Mar 15 2004, 02:19 PM

my hair's like deep brown mixed with light blonde and a few reddish strands..
sounds strange but looks quite good tongue.gif

: RATMROXMYSOX Mar 15 2004, 02:39 PM

You know, we should PM cuz it gets annoying trying to talk to eachother in two separate threads and eat cheezits at the same time.

: Sara Mar 15 2004, 09:18 PM

^ yep PM's sound good.

: RATMROXMYSOX Mar 15 2004, 10:04 PM

::BACK ON TOPIC:: i used to feel this way when i was younger. it started out with my name."Sigourney" I wanted my name changed to "Laura" so that i could be more white. i guess that's what happened when i went to an all-white elementary school. I didn't want to go out in the sun for fear that i'd get darker. But of course now i love my brown skin. i can't imagine being any other way.

: krzyimport Mar 16 2004, 10:15 PM

? clap2.gif

: kennakb Mar 17 2004, 03:09 PM

secret.gif Expressoion=Beauty

: Moremi Mar 17 2004, 03:10 PM

Care to elaborate?

: kennakb Mar 17 2004, 03:25 PM

I just think some of humanity's more beautiful accomplishments have come from personal expression: art, music, photography, dance, literature, potery, science, etc.
Of course there are exceptions.

: Casbah Mar 17 2004, 04:14 PM

QUOTE
I just think some of humanity's more beautiful accomplishments have come from personal expression: art, music, photography, dance, literature, potery, science, etc.
Of course there are exceptions.


user posted image
i do believe the music of one NEIL DIAMOND is one of those beautiful accomplishments! tongue.gif

: Casbah Mar 17 2004, 04:16 PM

doh!, why wont the image load? sad.gif

: Moremi Mar 18 2004, 09:33 AM

I see what you're saying but we're not discussing art, we're talking about people; what we find attractive in people's physical appearances and why.

: kennakb Mar 18 2004, 09:39 AM

Yeah I understand, I was just looking at beauty in a different light. Sorry to get off topic.

: Moremi Mar 18 2004, 09:41 AM

I see. It's cool but yeah off topic tongue.gif

: Black_n_red_flag Mar 18 2004, 12:51 PM

Hmmmmm... Is it just me? Or are people getting away with racist murder???

I say no more...

: RATMROXMYSOX Mar 21 2004, 09:29 PM

QUOTE (Black_n_red_flag @ Mar 18 2004, 08:51 PM)
Hmmmmm... Is it just me? Or are people getting away with racist murder???

I say no more...

off topic. start a thread for that, or you will be persecuted for spamming by the almighty revolutionusa!

: Moremi Mar 22 2004, 07:12 AM

It is racist murder, especially in the spiritual sense.

: joseplluissans Apr 21 2004, 01:45 AM

Well, first a cliché : "Beauty is in the eye of the beholder"

But it´s true. For example, I like Beyouncé, but I like my girl with a little more "filling". Skinny skanks that are the modern society´s beauty standards, like supermodels, are not my thing. I mean, how can you call a girl that looks like a boy from the behind, beautiful? Or sexy!
Femininity comes from figure as well as the way you act.

I think God (if there´s one) meant women to be a little bit round.
So they would separate from men tongue.gif

There´s nothing more beautiful than a perfect round ass! Off with those bony boy-like "supermodels"! zmat2.gif

: Turd Ferguson Apr 21 2004, 09:42 AM

What I find fascinating is the whole paradox of beauty imposed on people of mixed heritage, what I would call the "exotic quixotic".
Take, for example, all of those sexy women on rap videos that have very unique features.....i.e. almond-shaped hazel eyes with bronze skin. Men find that very alluring and sexy......yet when they find out these women are part Asian/Latino/Black (or insert other ethnicity), they balk at that fact. A quote from eurasiannation.com best sums it up:

QUOTE
You’re half Asian? Well, I hope it’s the bottom half.

That comment made me feel like a centaur or something from an exhibit of Greek mythology of beasts. Like I was some sort of sexual freak of nature. I have the mythical China box, the gateway to the Orient, but the round Bambi eyes and curves of a westerner. Too cool. But no, not really.


On a personal note, I've experienced that exotic paradoxy. I get shit from the Fil-Am community for not being Filipino enough (both in ethnic mix and subculture), yet numerous Filipinos favor fair skin and Western features. I've also gotten that "slanted vagina" commentaries from a few men who like the fact that I'm some sort of Asian yet I look Mexican/Filipina............ wacko.gif

what the hell....

: zapatista Apr 21 2004, 09:47 AM

"slanted vagina"? unsure.gif

: Turd Ferguson Apr 21 2004, 09:53 AM

QUOTE (zapatista @ Apr 21 2004, 10:47 AM)
"slanted vagina"? unsure.gif

well...more in the lines of "you're very tight down there....so that's why I'll sleep with you..." ermm.gif

: angiedavis Apr 21 2004, 10:42 AM

Kawaii,

I'm part Mexican and Vietnamese and I deal with the ignorant remarks from both sides and it's annoying as hell, but what the hell can I do with ignorant fools, besides giving them a beat down. But I have to say you deal with some degenerate idiots. I don't know. But I know where you're coming from.


: Turd Ferguson Apr 21 2004, 08:40 PM

QUOTE (angiedavis @ Apr 21 2004, 11:42 AM)
But I have to say you deal with some degenerate idiots.

I lived in Los Alamitos for 6 years, and believe me.....being Filipina (or a person of color) in a very white upper class neighborhood harbors quite a bit of animosity. ermm.gif

I find it amusing when people try to guess my ethnicity. shifty.gif

: Holter Apr 21 2004, 10:41 PM

whats beautiful to me?

a woman's eyes.

: Metzli Apr 21 2004, 11:05 PM

QUOTE (joseplluissans @ Apr 21 2004, 02:45 AM)
Well, first a cliché : "Beauty is in the eye of the beholder"

But it´s true. For example, I like Beyouncé, but I like my girl with a little more "filling". Skinny skanks that are the modern society´s beauty standards, like supermodels, are not my thing. I mean, how can you call a girl that looks like a boy from the behind, beautiful? Or sexy!
Femininity comes from figure as well as the way you act.

I think God (if there´s one) meant women to be a little bit round.
So they would separate from men tongue.gif

There´s nothing more beautiful than a perfect round ass! Off with those bony boy-like "supermodels"! zmat2.gif

There should be more males with that mentality.. zyes.gif



about the Roundness and thickness part!!


There's nothing wrong with Skinny girls.. but there is definitely something wrong with it being the only form of accepatable beauty.

: Moremi Apr 22 2004, 09:13 PM

QUOTE (joseplluissans @ Apr 21 2004, 05:45 AM)
Skinny skanks

blink.gif

I get what you're saying though...we all have preferences.

: Sara Apr 22 2004, 09:22 PM

QUOTE (joseplluissans @ Apr 21 2004, 09:45 PM)
There´s nothing more beautiful than a perfect round ass! Off with those bony boy-like "supermodels"! zmat2.gif

that's not very nice... unsure.gif

and skanks? unsure.gif


but yeah we all have different conceptions of beauty.

: Moremi Apr 23 2004, 03:55 AM

Yeah and I don't want skinny women to disappear from magazines or television, I just think that there needs to be a more honest respresentation of what this world looks like. Skinny women have problems with their self image too. When you walk out your door does everyone look like Heidi Klum? They don't look like Beyonce either. There needs to be a little bit of everything rather than trying to pressure us all to look a certain way and stay forever young, with these wrinkle creams and chemical peels. You have girls in their twenties complaining about crows feet rolleyes.gif

Anyway, does anyone watch The Swan? One of the worst shows ever made but I can't stop watching ermm.gif I want to see how far they're going to go unsure.gif So sad what people put themselves through to look a certain way.

: MrMofoWest Apr 23 2004, 04:10 AM

beautiful means different things to different people. to me beautiful is having a certain natural auroa. make up doesnt make you more beatiful i think, it hides natural beauty. natural beauty is so much more than fake beauty thats been plastered on.

many things are beautiful, the sun setting in a red sky, a tear running down a persons cheek, a room which breathes life, people, thousands of stars in the night time sky.

beauty isnt looking your best, beauty is being who you are and not caring what other people think about what you look like. beautiful is a word, sometimes i cant describe how beautiful a person or thing is. that is true beauty when it transends the word.

: Moremi Apr 23 2004, 05:13 AM

I totally agree smile.gif

: Turd Ferguson Apr 23 2004, 11:43 AM

You know what's beautiful? A person who is passionate about their cause.......who has a degree of social consciousness......
Go beyond aesthetics......it's all an illusion!
"Have you betrayed your ideals? Your ideals will betray you..." blackhair.gif

: Moremi Apr 23 2004, 11:49 AM

Very true clap2.gif

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