Zack de la Rocha Network Forum _ .:: "the hot seat" ::. _ Abortion

: zapatista Mar 26 2003, 07:32 PM

http://www.upi.com/view.cfm?StoryID=20030326-043942-9685r

Most people have strong views about abortion. I, myself am pro-life as far as myself goes, I could never do it. But I do think It should be an option because, I feel all life is important including the lives of the mothers and If abortions were banned completely they would go back to back alley abortions and THAT we just can't have! I have to admit though I think that partial birth abortions are going to far and I agreed that they should be banned. If your goin to get one you should do it right away, not wait untill a point when the baby could be born and live! But this is just my opinion, what do you think? unsure.gif

: Sara Mar 27 2003, 03:59 AM

QUOTE
"(The bill) will ban the dangerous and inhumane procedure during in which a physician delivers an unborn child's body until only the head remains inside the womb, punctures the back of the child's skull with a sharp instrument, and sucks the child's brains out before completing delivery of the newly dead infant," said Rep. Steve Chabot, R-Ohio, who introduced the bill in February.



ok this is not right, sucking the brain...when the baby is born, he can feel stuf...


ok im against partial birth abortion, it's unethical really.


agree with u Zapatista, earlier during the pregnancy is one thing, but this...well, it's murder, in a true sense.

: cosmic Mar 28 2003, 12:43 AM

Yea, partial born abortions are too inhumane. It's unimaginabel how somebody can feel a baby in their body then abort it.


cosmic

: xpatriciax Mar 28 2003, 01:24 PM

If you're against abortions, don't have one.


oops.gif

: Turd Ferguson Mar 28 2003, 04:08 PM

NO partial birth abortions. That's just SICK! The baby will feel his/her life being sucked out in such a brutal way......
I myself am pro-choice....to a certain degree. I agree that abortions should only be performed in dire situations, when the mother's life is in danger, rape or incest....what good will it be when your child grows up and wonders who's his/her father? That would be quite psychologically damaging if you tell them that their daddy's a rapist!!!

: Sara Mar 28 2003, 09:16 PM

QUOTE (kawaii_buttercup @ Mar 29 2003, 01:08 PM)
I myself am pro-choice....to a certain degree. I agree that abortions should only be performed in dire situations, when the mother's life is in danger, rape or incest....what good will it be when your child grows up and wonders who's his/her father? That would be quite psychologically damaging if you tell them that their daddy's a rapist!!!

but it's up for us to decide what the appropriate reason for an abortion is. if a woman simply doesnt wanna have the baby then she has the right to abortion.




im against this parital birth abortion just because in my view, the baby is out of the womb and hence he's a human in the true sense, and his reponsibilities and rights are just like those of u and i, so when the mother chooses to suck his brain out, she's murdering him like she'd murder u or me.

: zapatista Mar 28 2003, 11:53 PM

QUOTE (xpatriciax @ Mar 28 2003, 09:24 PM)
If you're against abortions, don't have one.


oops.gif

You put a lot of thought into that didn't you!

: Radisshu Mar 29 2003, 04:24 AM

well, the baby isn't really a PERSON when it's inside the mother anyway. no, seriously, it's not.

: Sara Mar 29 2003, 02:42 PM

^is that directed at me? coz what i said is


QUOTE
im against this parital birth abortion just because in my view, the baby is out of the womb and hence he's a human in the true sense, and his reponsibilities and rights are just like those of u and i, so when the mother chooses to suck his brain out, she's murdering him like she'd murder u or me.




partial birth abortion means u kill the baby as he's half way out of the womb...

: guerrillainmate Mar 30 2003, 02:39 AM

QUOTE (Radisshu @ Mar 30 2003, 12:24 AM)
well, the baby isn't really a PERSON when it's inside the mother anyway. no, seriously, it's not.

its a living human being.
It is on the other hand completely vulnerable, unable to talk, unable to communicate effectively.
Soo, yeah, why not just kill it..
In a way its not much different to George W. killing iraqi civilians, they cant help whats going on, but they can get killed for it. blink.gif

anyway, i'm against abortions, and have a thought about abortion that will most proabbly piss every female on the planet off.

I dont think it should be a only a woman's choice to have an abortion or not.., especially if the guy disagrees with the abortion...
I understand that a woman has to have the baby "living inside it"..(notice how i used the word "living"??!)
but it's the guy's baby too.

: Radisshu Mar 30 2003, 12:41 PM

QUOTE (guerrillainmate @ Mar 30 2003, 10:39 AM)
QUOTE (Radisshu @ Mar 30 2003, 12:24 AM)
well, the baby isn't really a PERSON when it's inside the mother anyway. no, seriously, it's not.

its a living human being.
It is on the other hand completely vulnerable, unable to talk, unable to communicate effectively.
Soo, yeah, why not just kill it..
In a way its not much different to George W. killing iraqi civilians, they cant help whats going on, but they can get killed for it. blink.gif

anyway, i'm against abortions, and have a thought about abortion that will most proabbly piss every female on the planet off.

I dont think it should be a only a woman's choice to have an abortion or not.., especially if the guy disagrees with the abortion...
I understand that a woman has to have the baby "living inside it"..(notice how i used the word "living"??!)
but it's the guy's baby too.

the baby breathes. the baby lives. the baby, however, DOESN'T think.
it's not even complete.

the mother, however, is. although for an abortion, i think the father should at least get some kind of chance to stop it, because.. well, the baby is half of him, somehow.

and i hate those fools going screaming "KILLER, MURDERER!" to the would-be-parents and the doctors.. especially the "parents", since they've probably gone through some pretty rough decisions and experiences to begin with.

..although i think adoption is a better option than abortion, because the kid WILL become a full person, no doubt...

: xUNLIKEyou Mar 31 2003, 02:03 PM

I'm pro-choice all the way. In my mind, it doesn't matter if the baby is a living being or not. I can't even imagine what would happen if abortions were made illegal.

Our system can't even take care of the children it has in it's care, let alone the millions that would come into their care if abortions were made illegal. And to top it all off, girls would resort to unsafe back alley abortions that could be very harmful and unsanitary.

I care far more about the children that are actually living and breathing than the fetus' being aborted.

Maybe people should spend more time thinking about the children that are starving and homeless, and spend less time thinking about unborn babies.

: zapatista Mar 31 2003, 11:27 PM

QUOTE (xUNLIKEyou @ Mar 31 2003, 10:03 PM)
I'm pro-choice all the way. In my mind, it doesn't matter if the baby is a living being or not. I can't even imagine what would happen if abortions were made illegal.

Well, if abortions were made illegal we would have backalley abortions with coat hangers like pre-Roe vs. Wade. Because of this I think it should be an option.
But we have to draw the line somewhere! And I my stopping point is partial birth abortion. You labor and deliver just as you would if you were delivering at term.
If you don't stop at partial birth abortion, then I guess people throwing a day old baby in the trash is ok to.

I see your point about being more consernced with kids that are already here though. Children in the foster care system and children being abused have less rights then some would give a fetus. so sad...

Bill Hicks, a great comedian once said that "your not a human untill your in my phonebook" needless to say he's pro-choice!

: Radisshu Apr 1 2003, 05:46 AM

QUOTE (xUNLIKEyou @ Mar 31 2003, 10:03 PM)
I'm pro-choice all the way. In my mind, it doesn't matter if the baby is a living being or not. I can't even imagine what would happen if abortions were made illegal.

Our system can't even take care of the children it has in it's care, let alone the millions that would come into their care if abortions were made illegal. And to top it all off, girls would resort to unsafe back alley abortions that could be very harmful and unsanitary.

I care far more about the children that are actually living and breathing than the fetus' being aborted.

Maybe people should spend more time thinking about the children that are starving and homeless, and spend less time thinking about unborn babies.

word!

: Manifest Apr 1 2003, 09:37 PM

Ok for my sociology class we are debting whether it is right or not to do what China did and set a one child limit by sterilizing unemployed single mothers who are a burden to society becuase they have no jobs, reley on walfare, and for the fact that most do not raise their children right. do you guys think its right?




( ^ just a hypothetical situation)

: zapatista Apr 1 2003, 09:54 PM

^ You could start a whole new topic on this, get some people really fired up! zmat2.gif

smile.gif

: Radisshu Apr 1 2003, 10:12 PM

QUOTE (Manifest @ Apr 2 2003, 05:37 AM)
Ok for my sociology class we are debting whether it is right or not to do what China did and set a one child limit by sterilizing unemployed single mothers who are a burden to society becuase they have no jobs, reley on walfare, and for the fact that most do not raise their children right. do you guys think its right?




( ^ just a hypothetical situation)

NO, HELL NO
we're no fuckin nazis, who only wanted the "right" people to breed.. are we?

: xUNLIKEyou Apr 2 2003, 10:04 AM

QUOTE (Manifest @ Apr 1 2003, 10:37 PM)
Ok for my sociology class we are debting whether it is right or not to do what China did and set a one child limit by sterilizing unemployed single mothers who are a burden to society becuase they have no jobs, reley on walfare, and for the fact that most do not raise their children right. do you guys think its right?




( ^ just a hypothetical situation)

Hmm, I've always been on the fence when it comes to China's one child limit.

In one way, it's great because it reduces the population, controls growth, and prevents people with little or no resources from having loads of children, like they usually do. Plus, it makes families put more focus on their children.

But, it's also absolutely not right to sterilize anyone against their will.

I guess, the issue would be, what's more important, controlling the population or our freedom to procreate?

: cosmic Apr 2 2003, 09:00 PM

QUOTE
I guess, the issue would be, what's more important, controlling the population or our freedom to procreate?



Right, overpopulation is greatly underrated as of now, but it's earth's greatest disaster in the making. The world will simply not be able to support the vast rise in population in the next 50 years. At best, we can slow down procreation and up the level of food production, but that will only dent the impending problem. Managing procreation is a tough dilemma, which many have stuffed under the rug. China has done drastic measures for drastic times, which seems is the only way.


cosmic

: Sara Apr 3 2003, 12:54 AM

QUOTE (cosmic @ Apr 3 2003, 06:00 PM)
China has done drastic measures for drastic times, which seems is the only way.


that's scary...


ok, it's a woman's fundemental right to bear children, so no one has the right to take that away from her.


also, has it actually worked? women that give birth to a child that happens to be a girl may ,and this has happened before, place the baby in the garbage, or leave it on the street, so yeah, im not sure if that was the original purpose of the plan.

: Radisshu Apr 3 2003, 12:38 PM

did yak now that every (well, not EVERY, but 90% or sumthin) average family in china wants to have their own car.. but if all average families in china HAD cars, the pollution would be so enourmus that it would ruin, well, a lot of stuff.

: Sara Apr 3 2003, 07:02 PM

QUOTE (Radisshu @ Apr 4 2003, 09:38 AM)
did yak now that every (well, not EVERY, but 90% or sumthin) average family in china wants to have their own car.. but if all average families in china HAD cars, the pollution would be so enourmus that it would ruin, well, a lot of stuff.

and that relates to this topic because....?

: Radisshu Apr 5 2003, 11:56 AM

nothing, really. why?
just odd facts. delete if you want to.
*grin*

: rage baby Apr 5 2003, 05:58 PM

but what about ppl in some other countries. they might be forced into having abortions, even partial birth ones?

: Radisshu Apr 6 2003, 01:34 AM

...
"other countries"? there aren't just americans in this forum, y'know.

: Sara Apr 6 2003, 03:36 AM

QUOTE (Radisshu @ Apr 6 2003, 08:56 AM)
nothing, really. why?
just odd facts. delete if you want to.
*grin*

mellow.gif

: Radisshu Apr 6 2003, 09:40 AM

......................
what?
i *am* odd.

: zapatista Apr 6 2003, 06:38 PM

Ok, getting back to the subject, kind of. ermm.gif
As far as China goes, they do have a serious over population there. Greater then I think we can appreciate. And cosmic made a good point about China taking extream measures, they have to take extream measures at this point. I can understand the need for a one child limit there, my problem is, that from things I have read. These ideals are being carried out in such a way that they are cruel and inhumane.

Maybe Euthanasia?
Any body have views on that?

: Radisshu Apr 8 2003, 07:58 AM

hm... well, i say sterilization is wrong... but if they have the "limit" thingie or sumthin, ok, it sounds scary, but if the country is almost exploding with too many people, y'know..

: xUNLIKEyou Apr 8 2003, 08:54 AM

I think I read somewhere that mothers who have over two babies in China are sometimes forced into having abortions. Sometimes, they're even forced to have partial birth abortions.

It's a scary thing, but desperate situations call for desperate measures.

: Sara Apr 9 2003, 01:50 AM

QUOTE (zapatista @ Apr 7 2003, 03:38 PM)
Ok, getting back to the subject, kind of. ermm.gif
As far as China goes, they do have a serious over population there. Greater then I think we can appreciate. And cosmic made a good point about China taking extream measures, they have to take extream measures at this point. I can understand the need for a one child limit there, my problem is, that from things I have read. These ideals are being carried out in such a way that they are cruel and inhumane.

Maybe Euthanasia?
Any body have views on that?

i am against sterlisation, because bearing children is a woman's fundemental right.



also, the one child policy doesn't seem to be working very well in china, the socitey is patriarachal and patrilineal (correct me if im wrong) and so having boys is much better than having girls (at least most view this way). what happens when they give birth to a girl? well, some of them (not all, some) put the baby out with the garbage or on the streets.


so im fully against that crap.

: Radisshu Apr 9 2003, 01:51 AM

... first they need to give women equal rights to men

: Manifest Apr 9 2003, 08:24 AM

how so?

: Radisshu Apr 11 2003, 06:38 AM

because then the chance of them dropping female babies in the streets, to get a male one instead, grows smaller.

(GROWS smaller? sounds odd.)

: Sara Apr 13 2003, 12:19 AM

im not sure that's possible though.


it's a nice thought, but like, these values are part of their culture, and it has been for a very long time, it's hard to try and shift it or change it in such a short period of time. ermm.gif


i also would like to point out, that being a patriarchal patrilineal society doesn't make them misogynists. i think what triggered those incidents of putting baby girls in trash cans is really the one-child policy.

over all a family wants a boy, but never was pressured by limitations, till that Law was passed.

: Radisshu Apr 14 2003, 01:16 PM

yeah, but now it's there to stay (the law thing)... hopefully women will get the same rights, in at least a while, so no babies will be put in the trash... i mean, then abortion's a LOT better

: Manifest Apr 20 2003, 01:13 PM

did you know that it's a common thing to sell female children to whore houses and sweat shops

: Radisshu Apr 21 2003, 09:45 PM

that sucks...
DAMN that's horrible!
ARRRGH!


...

hrm. that's why they need to make more equal..stuff.
and close all the brothels. =P

: comeandgetmeFEDS Apr 25 2003, 10:20 PM

to be able to say that something (anything at all) doesn't have feeling just like you and I, is to say yourself that your feelings shouldn't have relevance to other peoples' actions. In a world where technology can identify the father, and rape cases, I think that we should treat it as a gift of truth. Meaning that in order to keep irresponsibility out of the abortion ring, rapes and incest should be the only cases in which an abortion be done. If someone knows that they won't be able to financially take care of another human, wear a god damn condom. If the condom breaks, go get the FREE shit at the pregnancy crisis center that will terminate the sperm fertilizing the egg....at any point where there is even a brain stem (which is sometime late in the first trimester) then it should be treated as so...something with the ability to produce thought, just like me or you...

: comeandgetmeFEDS Apr 25 2003, 10:33 PM

about procreation and the persons right to choose whether or not they want to have kids are the fundamental principles of what philosophers have been trying to finger for all time...whether or not the will of all people is good or evil. Do you want to create more just because you can or do you want to yourself take responsibility in the actions of putting yet another potential threat to everyone here and not do it....no one knows if they are going to carry the next ghandi or hitler...most believe they will raise their kid to do what they think is right....but alot of people have a seemingly demented view of right and wrong...(i say seemingly because no one can possibly prove rightness or wrongness)



on that i say "perception is a misleading tool"

: Sara Apr 28 2003, 08:48 PM

QUOTE (comeandgetmeFEDS @ Apr 26 2003, 07:20 PM)
to be able to say that something (anything at all) doesn't have feeling just like you and I, is to say yourself that your feelings shouldn't have relevance to other peoples' actions. In a world where technology can identify the father, and rape cases, I think that we should treat it as a gift of truth. Meaning that in order to keep irresponsibility out of the abortion ring, rapes and incest should be the only cases in which an abortion be done. If someone knows that they won't be able to financially take care of another human, wear a god damn condom. If the condom breaks, go get the FREE shit at the pregnancy crisis center that will terminate the sperm fertilizing the egg....at any point where there is even a brain stem (which is sometime late in the first trimester) then it should be treated as so...something with the ability to produce thought, just like me or you...

can u explain a bit more?


im not sure i fully get u, but r u saying that the only case where abortion should be permitted is when it's rape..?


a baby that is produced of rape or consensual sex is a baby...

if ur against abortion....it should apply to all babies



huh.gif

: The Wind below May 6 2003, 03:13 PM

I personally have very strong feelings against abortion. My whole deal is that no one on this planet has the right to decide whether or not another person lives or dies other than the person themselves. That goes for everything, abortion, death penalty, euthenasia, all forms of accepted murder. My friend argued with me a while back that it is ok to abort a fetus because it is at the time nothing, it's an inaniment object, he compared it to a blade of grass. I said that the blade of grass doesn't have the potential to become a human being and that alone is reason enough to not abort a fetus. I don't know if that is the universal argument for all pro choice people out there, but he did a good job of making it seem like it is. No body, no one at all can say that a baby/fetus should be aborted, not even the mother that has it. That is not her decision, it is not her life, it is that baby's life. I agree that back alley abortions would not be good and would happen, but I think abortion is arrogant and barbaric in our modern society where we are "civil".

: cosmic May 6 2003, 05:24 PM

Wind Below, does this apply to anything living or just humans?


cosmic

: The Wind below May 6 2003, 06:21 PM

for me it's just humans, I'm not a vegetarian. But, thats not a universal code, so it can apply to animals, it doesn't for me.

: annakist May 11 2003, 02:42 AM

QUOTE (kawaii_buttercup @ Mar 29 2003, 12:08 AM)
NO partial birth abortions. That's just SICK! The baby will feel his/her life being sucked out in such a brutal way......
I myself am pro-choice....to a certain degree. I agree that abortions should only be performed in dire situations, when the mother's life is in danger, rape or incest....what good will it be when your child grows up and wonders who's his/her father? That would be quite psychologically damaging if you tell them that their daddy's a rapist!!!

I couldnt agree more......partial birth i havent even heard of it ...thats awful!!!!!...........my feelings are that there are many unwanted unloved children in this world ....too many of them and in many cases this is a result of carelessness on the part of the people who had unprotected sex in the first place, however not all people who find themselves pregnant are careless.........and we all can make mistakes.....if this happens and someone feels they are not ready or dont want children they should terminate the pregnancy as soon as possible.......we should have this freedom and right........and it shouldnt be judged negitively in this case. Abortion is extremely difficult for many people - physically, emotionally and mentally.......if done out of the care of the future of our race and our children it should be accepted ...........i think its religion (of various kinds) that has mainly attached this stigma to abortion....

: Zero May 12 2003, 08:44 AM

QUOTE (guerrillainmate @ Mar 30 2003, 10:39 AM)

anyway, i'm against abortions, and have a thought about abortion that will most proabbly piss every female on the planet off.

I dont think it should be a only a woman's choice to have an abortion or not.., especially if the guy disagrees with the abortion...
I understand that a woman has to have the baby "living inside it"..(notice how i used the word "living"??!)
but it's the guy's baby too.

Let's turn that one on its head for a moment; what about all the legions of silly little girls out there who deliberately get themselves pregnant in order to be given a house and unemployment benefits??

Shouldn't the fathers that have been duped by these girls have an equal say as to whether or not they should be allowed to have a baby for such reasons? I dunno about the US, but it happens here in the UK all the time. Innocent blokes trapped by these lazy little oiks, and then expected to pay for a akid they never see, and never wanted!!

It's very dependant on circumstancee, of course, but I think abortion can be VERY necessary.

Z zmat2.gif

: Manifest May 12 2003, 02:05 PM

QUOTE (Zero @ May 12 2003, 09:44 AM)
Let's turn that one on its head for a moment; what about all the legions of silly little girls out there who deliberately get themselves pregnant in order to be given a house and unemployment benefits??

Shouldn't the fathers that have been duped by these girls have an equal say as to whether or not they should be allowed to have a baby for such reasons? I dunno about the US, but it happens here in the UK all the time. Innocent blokes trapped by these lazy little oiks, and then expected to pay for a akid they never see, and never wanted!!

It's very dependant on circumstancee, of course, but I think abortion can be VERY necessary.

Z zmat2.gif

if a dude is irresponsible enough to end up in that situation he deserves what ever comes his way, of course I do believe he should have a say in the upbringing of the child, and that reasonning about getting "duped" (what a fucking cop out) its not like those guys were forced or tricked into shoving their no-common sense having dicks in a girl, you make them sound like a victim when they actually put themselves in that situation. I mean it's total fucking common sense if you dont want a kid don't have fucking sex, you dumb assholes

: Zero May 13 2003, 03:53 AM

QUOTE (Manifest @ May 12 2003, 10:05 PM)
if a dude is irresponsible enough to end up in that situation he deserves what ever comes his way, of course I do believe he should have a say in the upbringing of the child, and that reasonning about getting "duped" (what a f*cking cop out) its not like those guys were forced or tricked into shoving their no-common sense having dicks in a girl, you make them sound like a victim when they actually put themselves in that situation. I mean it's total f*cking common sense if you dont want a kid don't have f*cking sex, you dumb assholes

I do sincerely hope that last little dig was not directed at me, as I am talking from personal experience here, and would therefore thank you NOT to flame me for what is a VERY valid opinion! I'm in the middle of one such situation, I should know!!

Women have all the resources they need to take full control of their own fertility, thats why the pill was invented, because men cannot be trusted! But still this happens, over and over and over, because it is what these little slags want, someone to leach off of so they never have to get off their fat, lazy arses. And they do it, and they make their kids live in squalor in order to keep it that way.

Everybody has a responsibility to not put themself in this situation, but it is far easier for a woman to lie about it. I sure hope you never end up like that, cos your attitude is, I fear, too childish to cope. I dont want kids, but I still have sex, cos I am not a slut or an idiot or a liar, and I am mature enough to protect myself!!

Any by the way, I am a woman.

: sIndustry May 22 2003, 04:05 PM

well, i'm a "christian" but i also believe in freedom of choice. i might be going against my "religion" but i think abortion is a freedom, and women should have the right to choose.

: lovely me May 31 2003, 01:27 AM

I am pro-choice and believe there should be a limitation to the abortions you can have, I think one time is enough. If you have to have second or third abortion, there's something wrong with you.

Men (sperm donors) having any say whether a woman should abort his baby (or not) is LAUGHABLE! I'll tell you what, when dead beat fathers cease to exist, maybe I will consider a man putting in his two worthless cents.



on a side note: i just rubbed my eye and it was full of make up =/


and for those of you who disagree, for my sake, lets pertend you don't because I wouldn't like to debate this issue on a bb, thanks! (yes, i am lazy)

: rev79 May 31 2003, 02:46 AM

Well, I live in Wichita, KS(home of the infamous Dr. George Tiller. I, myself am pro-choice because I think there's just certain situations where it can be necessary such as if a woman is raped and gets pregnant she's obviously NOT gonna want to have that child. However, I get sick when I think about the youth of today, going around porking their brains out, not even giving a damn about the consequences of their actions. Then they panic, and a couple months later daddy pays for an abortion. I DON'T believe in abortion that way.
A few years back, a woman attempted to shoot the good doctor as he exited his office, and there's been many protests outside the building. Look, its a common practice, horrible as it may be, and they're going to do it themselves if we don't do it for them anyway. But let's put some stipulations on it..

: FreeWM3 Jun 25 2003, 06:21 AM

Ok. I am pro-choice. I believe something isn't living until it is born. That's what I believe. Those who are against abortions have that right to be. I just hate having "don't stop a beating heart" slogans pushed in my face all the time. My dad used to live near an abortion clinic and you have the pro-life protesters jumping in front of my car with their signs and shit. I don't go around with my pro-choice posters everywhere, harassing people to jump into my wagon. I have no problem with people having their beliefs, but don't fucking push them on me. Ok, I'm sorry but I don't know who said it cause I read it a while ago, but someone on here said "people have open minds only open to what their beliefs are," or something of that nature. I think that's a brilliant statement. That goes for both pro-life and pro-choice activists. Another example: I'm athiest and when I go walking in Manhattan, for some reason I have all the religious people coming up to me pushing "Jesus saves" things on me. I tell them "no thank you, I don't have a religion" and they keep pressing on and on. I don't go around screaming "there is no god! There is no god!" I mean really. Anyways I think I've expressed myself enough hahaha. Ahh that felt good.
grin.gif

: rev79 Jun 25 2003, 07:53 AM

QUOTE (Zero @ May 13 2003, 06:53 AM)

I do sincerely hope that last little dig was not directed at me, as I am talking from personal experience here, and would therefore thank you NOT to flame me for what is a VERY valid opinion! I'm in the middle of one such situation, I should know!!

Women have all the resources they need to take full control of their own fertility, thats why the pill was invented, because men cannot be trusted! But still this happens, over and over and over, because it is what these little slags want, someone to leach off of so they never have to get off their fat, lazy arses. And they do it, and they make their kids live in squalor in order to keep it that way.

Everybody has a responsibility to not put themself in this situation, but it is far easier for a woman to lie about it. I sure hope you never end up like that, cos your attitude is, I fear, too childish to cope. I dont want kids, but I still have sex, cos I am not a slut or an idiot or a liar, and I am mature enough to protect myself!!

Any by the way, I am a woman.

Ok so what do you mean men can't be trusted?? In my opinion, women can't be trusted just the same. There's plenty of praying bitches out there who are more than willing to lie to a man so they can get knocked up, which traps the man for life. Its an old trick, they also like to mention the fact that they MIGHT be pregnant every couple weeks or so, just to keep the man in check, believe ME, I speak from experience too. And last time I checked men didn't have any say-so in whether they wanted to produce a kid, so its not as if we plot this out. You're the one that's plotting. And it sounds to me like you're one of them people that believe the pill is 100% effective. Well, we used condoms AND she was on the pill, and bam, out it came. So it could happen to you again, and again. I just can't stand women who are brought up with the notion that all men are ignorant beasts who are most likely telling a lie every time they open their mouths.

Tony

: Moremi Jun 25 2003, 11:11 AM

Joining this discussion late and haven't read through all the posts yet...

But my view on this is, if I make the decision to have sex and out of that act I become pregnant, I will keep the child regardless of any other circumstance. I would never sleep with someone I didn't love and I wouldn't have sex unless I was able to handle all the responsibilities that came with it. That's my personal decision. However, I still think the option to abort should be available to all women but only in extreme cases, such as, rape, incest or if the pregnancy endangers the mother's life.

A lot of young people just have sex without thinking of the consequences and rather than taking preventive measures, they use abortion as a form of birth control. There are girls who haven't even reached 18 that have had 3 or more abortions. Also, abortions are not completely safe. A lot of women have destroyed their reproductive organs by having one.

: axisdelasal Jun 26 2003, 09:55 AM

I am pro-choice but I think that abortion is not right. People are selfish when they get to this decision. Is not right to enjoy sex and a have a great time to then make an abortion because it was an error. I blame the entertainment for this because they put sex, as the best thing in the world they brainwash us to think that sex is cool and do it a lot is cooler. That’s shit I should rather had sex with the woman I loved rather than with five different women that I met the same day. Many pro-choice said that this is a right of violated woman you know that only a merely 0.2% of violated woman get pregnant because the conditions when the sex act is done (fear, stress, sadness, violence) never let the body work property. I hate abortion because it stole me the opportunity to be a father because it was her choice I couldn’t do anything.

: zapatista Jun 26 2003, 02:10 PM

Did you guys here about this? This says alot to me, because she is the reason abortion was made legal in Texas.
There is alot of argument over the right to choose but not enough discussion on how it effects the ones making the choice.

''Roe'' of ''Roe vs. Wade'' Wants Abortion Ruling Reversed

http://www.canoe.ca/CNEWS/World/2003/06/17/113420-ap.html

: ratmgirl Jun 26 2003, 09:58 PM

This has to be the touchiest subject there is. Ever. I'm pro-choice. I don't agree with partial-birth abortions. That is just down right cruel. The fetus is practically fully developed, ,has nerve responses, therefore can feel it. If you're having an abortion in the first trimester, it's different. It's not fully developed and by law, is legal and is a womans choice. However, I don't feel that abortion can be used as a type of birth control. There are young girls from where I am that use it as just that, a birth control. They feel that if they get pregnant and don't want it they can just prance on into the Morgantaler clinic and get it "taken care of." It doesn't work that way, but you cannot tell them that for the reason that they just won't listen. They're abusing the right to an abortion by using it that way.

I feel that if a woman gets pregnant, cannot financially afford to raise a baby depending on the circumstances, that she has the right to an abortion. When you think about it, it's not just the womans decision. The male should have a say in the matter too. Which they do.

I'm all for abortion in cases of rape, insest adn the like. I just don't suppor it when girls are using it for a birth control. That's what condoms are for. The kids around here are just freaking stupid. I'd like to slap everyone of them. haha.

Where i'm from abortions are covered. We don't have to pay anything for them. Depending on the duration of the pregnancy, you may have to pay something for them.

I'm just rambling. Bare with me. haha. I did a paper on the legality of abortions and if it's the womans choice or not for one of my law classes. It was great fun.

peace out!

: Dreamcatcher Jun 29 2003, 08:56 AM

QUOTE (sIndustry @ May 23 2003, 12:05 AM)
well, i'm a "christian" but i also believe in freedom of choice. i might be going against my "religion" but i think abortion is a freedom, and women should have the right to choose.

I'm not a Christian but I agree 100%.

As a woman I don't want ANYBODY telling me what I can and can't do with my body. I didn't ask to be born a woman. A lot of woman don't want children but have sex because they love the person they're with. It doesn't matter what might come of it. Because they don't want children they should lose their right to show affection to the person they love through having sex with them. What I've done and will do with my body is nobody's business but my own.

As a person that grew up with a parent that paid child support but didn't want anything to do with me. I feel [just my opinion] that if one person wants an abortion man or woman then an abortion should be had. I don't think anybody should be forced to have a child especially when the child is the one that feels the effects of growing up with one parent that doesn't want them. I'm not a guy but I wouldn't want to be forced to have a child. As a woman I wouldn't want to be forced as well. I think it's one of the most selfish things to think "well I can raise my child and I want my child" Think about the effects of missing one parent might have on your child. I don't think finding that out is worth it. I know plenty of children grow up fine with only one parent but that doesn't go for everybody and no matter who you are you can't say whether your child will be OK with that or not and it's a big gamble because it's something that when it does affect a person it REALLY affects them. Some people say 'oh a child is the most precious thing" A lot of people don't think that way and even if they do feel that abortion is right for them and their situation.

Sex is a beautiful thing and even when precautions are taken they don't always work and that shouldn't stop people from showing affection by having sex. I wouldn't have sex with anybody I wasn't in love with but if I don't want to have a child then I shouldn't. My friend's mother didn't even know she was pregnant until she was 8 months along. That happens more then people care to know. She kept her son and she was/is still married to the father but sometimes that happens when you're not with the father anymore or when you don't have the money or when you're just not ready. I'm not saying the parents have to be together to have a child either. Also adoption is great and it's hard for some to put a child up for adoption but a lot of people say they will but after having the child end up keeping it because they feel emotionally they can't give it up. I know of a lot of wonderful adoptions but I also know of a lot of terrible ones as well. Even some where the families were picked by the parents.

Also as a woman that grew up so poor I was lucky I could fit my hand in the peanut butter jar, In all honesty I feel that that is no way to bring up a child. I always went without food and everybody always asked where my father was. My mother was selfish to HAVE me. A child should not grow up that poor. A person should really think through what their child might go through not having the other parent give two shits about them just as much as they should think about having what the child needs. She should've thought about how hard it would be for a kid that's half Spanish to grow up 1 out of only 2 minorities in a mostly Caucasian neighborhood.

I know my story is mine and that everybody has a different story and everybody feels different about the way they grew up but some also feel the way I do. Not having a father doesn't bother me now that I'm grown but when I was a child I never understood. There are some things to take into consideration. I feel that everybody has the right to their opinion but pro-lifers that try to change my mind I can only laugh at. Respect that others have their right to feel their way as much as you have the right to feel your way. Around here pro-lifers are the rich people that never ever saw a week or even a day without food and heat. I know not all of them are like that but where I'm from they are.

It's fine if you believe abortion is wrong but don't push your opinion on me it's not going to change my mind. I've seen the photos of abortions and I would still have one at any time of the pregnancy if I feel that that's what's best. As I said before as a woman NOBODY is going to tell me what I can do with my body. I shouldn't have to be stuck in a situation because of what a bunch of people I've never met and most likely never will meet feel because quite frankly it's my body and I don't care what others say. I control it.

OK This is a depressing subject LOL. I just wanted to add my 2 cents and vent before I never come into this topic again. LOL I've gotten into too many arguments just adding my opinion it's so immature. LOL Hav a great day people.

: ozorage Jun 29 2003, 08:57 PM

there's TOOOO much for me to read but thought i'd just state my position or thoughts or whatever.

ok. ME. i could NEVER see MYSELF getting an abortion. i dunno. maybe it's cuz i've ALWAYS been around little kiddies and i love them or something but i could never see myself killing a baby.....don't give me that shit about the fetus not being a living being. that's bullshit. and it's not based on my religion or whatever. it's based on me.

i've thought about the rape scenario. what if i got raped? damn. even then i could not see myself getting an abortion.

BUT....that's all for me. i'm not sayin that shit's for everyone. your body your choice. it's what i say for my body. that's something i could never do to my body. to myself. to my mind. i would be fucked up for life if i did that.

AND....i also think this shit's become the easy way out of taking responsibilty for your own actions. yea you fucked and got pregnant....well you should've used a fucking condom....what it ripped?....how about the pill, the patch, the ring....? what allergic?....give me a fucking break...there's so many fucking birth control methods...fucking choose one....take responsiblity for your own fucking actions. mellow.gif

i dunno. that's just me. i could never see myself living in peace after killing a being that is part of me. inside of me. damn. that shit's intense. cry.gif


: dreamer997 Jun 30 2003, 04:46 AM

Abortion is a difficult issue.
I wouldn't do it. Well I a least say that for now.

That Kathalic church is against it because they don't want to give the right to controle their body to women. shutup.gif
But what will you do if you got rape in the most horrible way and later finding out you are pregnant???
uncsam.gif

I wouldn't do it because I think it's murder grim.gif , but I am still for abortion. Because I believe in the right for women to make that dissicion.

: ozorage Jun 30 2003, 09:05 AM

QUOTE (dreamer997 @ Jun 30 2003, 08:46 AM)
But what will you do if you got rape in the most horrible way and later finding out you are pregnant???

get me some emergency contraception. morning after pill. and if all else fails and i end up knocked up by some fucker..... ermm.gif
for now i can strongly say i wouldn't be able to get an abortion....but hopefully that day will never come and i won't have to make that decision. unsure.gif
....but for others that have had to deal with this shit....it's their decision. their body.

: Moremi Jul 2 2003, 10:30 AM

QUOTE (ozorage @ Jun 30 2003, 01:05 PM)
QUOTE (dreamer997 @ Jun 30 2003, 08:46 AM)
But what will you do if you got rape in the most horrible way and later finding out you are pregnant???

get me some emergency contraception. morning after pill. and if all else fails and i end up knocked up by some fucker..... ermm.gif
for now i can strongly say i wouldn't be able to get an abortion....but hopefully that day will never come and i won't have to make that decision. unsure.gif
....but for others that have had to deal with this shit....it's their decision. their body.

I'm not sure I would either but I think raising the child would be very difficult ermm.gif

: zapatista Jul 2 2003, 11:01 AM

^But you wouldn't have to raise it...adoption.
I don't know...the whole things feels all wrong to me..but like I said be for. It should be an option..within reason! It should have to be done in the first few weeks. I'm a woman..and all I know for sure is there is no way I could do it. It's a person.. cry.gif

: R3N3G4D3 Jul 2 2003, 12:44 PM

i understand if ua re young and raped than become pregnant but if u are gonna foolaround and not use a condom than take responcability dont kill it if u dont want it let it get adopted

: Moremi Jul 2 2003, 02:49 PM

QUOTE (zapatista @ Jul 2 2003, 03:01 PM)
^But you wouldn't have to raise it...adoption.
I don't know...the whole things feels all wrong to me..but like I said be for. It should be an option..within reason! It should have to be done in the first few weeks. I'm a woman..and all I know for sure is there is no way I could do it. It's a person.. cry.gif

I think that would be just as difficult for me maybe even more...

: zapatista Jul 2 2003, 02:53 PM

QUOTE (ZDLRfan @ Jul 2 2003, 10:49 PM)
I think that would be just as difficult for me maybe even more...

I think maybe your right. cry.gif

: TheShootingStar Jul 2 2003, 06:04 PM

Ok.. I finally had a chance to sit down and read all these posts!! I've been tryin to respond to this topic for A LONG TIME but, never got the chance... So, this is my opinion and responses to some of the comments made (TOO much to quote.. laugh.gif )

Ok, I'm against abortion for the most part.. The only way I feel there should be an abortion is if it is an EXTREME case!!! Basically meaning if it is rape or incest (there was one more thing, but I can't remember what it was)..

When, people say stuff like I'm having an abortion because I can't financially take care of the kid and you should have an abortion before the kid fully developes into a person I feel that is just a cop out!!! Look, at it this way.. Is the ONLY reason your not having the kid is because you can't support them??? If it is the case.. then why not just give them up for adoption??? I mean you may not be able to take take care of the kid.. but, that doesn't mean somebody else can't.. ya know??? Now, I can't speak for everybody out there on this because I know we all live in different countries, but I can speak for a lot of people that live in the US.. And especially Ohio.. They just made a law, not too long ago (maybe a year or two ago) here in Ohio.. Where its basically a drop off law.. If you don't want your kid, you can basically drop it off at this place downtown AS SOON AS the kid is born!!!!

Now there was a post that was made and somebody said somethin like.. Why should I have to give up my right of showing affection to the one I love by having sex and not wanting to have any kids.. Well, this is how I see it.. I know your much smarter than that.. And i know you know that if you have sex there is a POSSIBLE chance you can get pregnant.. So, by knowing that information.. There should be NO excuse to have an abortion, if you do get pregnant.. There are other ways (besides having sex) where you can express your affection for the one love.. ya know??? Because from what I read it basically seems like your trying to say you were forced to get pregnant and its not the case (unless you were raped).. I feel if you choose to have sex then you should take responsibility for the kid.. ya know??

And about the comment about having an abortion because the kid may only have one parent and how it would effect them.. I agree that only having one parent COULD effect the kid.. But, in another case.. It may not have a big effect on the kid at all.. But, who's to say.. Nobody knows what will happen for sure.. But, if you have an abortion.. How will you ever know?? Having an abortion by killing the kid won't solve anything.. So, do you think a little stress or death in general would be best option?? One parent is better than no parent at all!!! wink.gif And if you have any male friends that you hang around with.. They can always be like big brother or even like a dad to your kid.. ya know???

Yeah, its your body and you can do whatever you want with it.. But, at the same time don't be selfish and just think about yourself in the process.. There is another body in your body that wants life.. I'm all for women having the power to make any choice they want (to an extent), but when it effects the life of someone else.. thats a whole different story.. ya know???

The big problem I have with abortion is a lot of people can use it as a cop out.. People go around having sex all the time and take it very lightly.. And then when they have an abortion they go out and do the same thing over and over.. And they never learn from it.. I think if people had to start keeping these kids.. they would eventually learn from their mistake... But, I guess people just feel.. Oh, I can just go and get an abortion!! But, all this is just my opinion though.. I'm not trying to force anything on nobody.. But, its just something to think about.. wink.gif

: rev79 Jul 2 2003, 07:26 PM

I read that Marilyn Monroe had at least a DOZEN abortions in her damn life..
cry.gif

: Zero Aug 13 2003, 03:18 AM

QUOTE (revolutionusa @ Jun 25 2003, 03:53 PM)
QUOTE (Zero @ May 13 2003, 06:53 AM)

I do sincerely hope that last little dig was not directed at me, as I am talking from personal experience here, and would therefore thank you NOT to flame me for what is a VERY valid opinion! I'm in the middle of one such situation, I should know!!

Women have all the resources they need to take full control of their own fertility, thats why the pill was invented, because men cannot be trusted! But still this happens, over and over and over, because it is what these little slags want, someone to leach off of so they never have to get off their fat, lazy arses. And they do it, and they make their kids live in squalor in order to keep it that way.

Everybody has a responsibility to not put themself in this situation, but it is far easier for a woman to lie about it. I sure hope you never end up like that, cos your attitude is, I fear, too childish to cope. I dont want kids, but I still have sex, cos I am not a slut or an idiot or a liar, and I am mature enough to protect myself!!

Any by the way, I am a woman.

Ok so what do you mean men can't be trusted?? In my opinion, women can't be trusted just the same. There's plenty of praying bitches out there who are more than willing to lie to a man so they can get knocked up, which traps the man for life. Its an old trick, they also like to mention the fact that they MIGHT be pregnant every couple weeks or so, just to keep the man in check, believe ME, I speak from experience too. And last time I checked men didn't have any say-so in whether they wanted to produce a kid, so its not as if we plot this out. You're the one that's plotting. And it sounds to me like you're one of them people that believe the pill is 100% effective. Well, we used condoms AND she was on the pill, and bam, out it came. So it could happen to you again, and again. I just can't stand women who are brought up with the notion that all men are ignorant beasts who are most likely telling a lie every time they open their mouths.

Tony

It is EVERYONE'S responsibility to not let this happen.

Maybe you should pick your partners more wisely...

Respectfully
Zx

: rev79 Aug 13 2003, 07:03 AM

You missed my point. And it took you 3 months to respond to this?

: Zero Aug 13 2003, 07:23 AM

QUOTE (revolutionusa @ Aug 13 2003, 03:03 PM)
You missed my point. And it took you 3 months to respond to this?

You missed mine, too, I believe. I think this is an 'agree-to-disagree', at least as far and you and me go...

As for the three month wait: I have better things to do than take issue with people over such trivialities.... tongue.gif Like recovering from a trauma!

: zackfan1234 Aug 17 2003, 06:29 PM

raise your hand if you are a male and you are pro life. . .


so i can smack your ass! tongue.gif

: shamenblues Nov 5 2003, 07:35 PM

I'm sot too sure where exactly to put this topic, but im sure this section will do. I just heard on the news that Bush just put a ban on a certain type of abortion. Its called partial-abortion. I think it stops mothers from having an abortion when the child is three months from being born. Or its three months in. dunno.gif Im not too sure where i stand on this subject at this point. So I want to hear your thoughts. Theres some info at www.cnn.com.

: AnarchyRulz89 Nov 24 2003, 11:44 AM

Dude thats just sick. I'm against abortion, i mean i wouldn't go and spraypaint your car if i saw you walk into an abortion clinic, its your choice, but they basicly rip the kid apart inside the mothers womb. Its still a humn being, cmon people. I only think an abortion should be allowed if someones life was at stake, like the mothers. And some of those things are not safe, people have been killed in those abortion clinics. Why couldnt you have the child and put it up for adoption or something. Its a human being dude. cmon. wallbash.gif

: rev79 Nov 24 2003, 12:09 PM

QUOTE (revolutionusa @ May 31 2003, 05:46 AM)
Well, I live in Wichita, KS(home of the infamous Dr. George Tiller. I, myself am pro-choice because I think there's just certain situations where it can be necessary such as if a woman is raped and gets pregnant she's obviously NOT gonna want to have that child. However, I get sick when I think about the youth of today, going around porking their brains out, not even giving a damn about the consequences of their actions. Then they panic, and a couple months later daddy pays for an abortion. I DON'T believe in abortion that way.
A few years back, a woman attempted to shoot the good doctor as he exited his office, and there's been many protests outside the building. Look, its a common practice, horrible as it may be, and they're going to do it themselves if we don't do it for them anyway. But let's put some stipulations on it..

http://www.drtiller.com

I just live a few blocks from this guy's practice..

http://www.feminist.org/other/wichita/

: zackfan1234 Dec 4 2003, 08:10 PM

if you're for freedom of speech then you have to understand that even groups like the KKK have a right to dispense racist propoganda. neo nazi groups have lawyers and americans everywhere defending their right to make horrible statements about non white people.

along these lines, i am pro choice. whether that means one first trimester abortion, a history of several abortions, or a late term or "partial birth" abortion. i'm for the right of a woman to choose either way. the right wing will paint a horrific picture like this (sucking out a baby's brain) to make the argument that abortion is just wrong all the time. i'm not going to let anyone change my opinion by telling horror stories. because if i do, then it's just a small leap to generalizing that all abortions are wrong. the right wing politicians are chipping away at the right to abortion little by little with an argument like this. we can't let it work.

in my opinion, whether it's a zygote, an embryo or a late term fetus, if a woman doesn't want it, it's her right to choose. i think if you believe in choice, then believe in choice unconditionally. like freedom of speech. or else you'll find that freedom of choice will slowly disappear.

: Sara Dec 4 2003, 09:35 PM

QUOTE (zackfan1234 @ Dec 5 2003, 05:10 PM)
the right wing will paint a horrific picture like this (sucking out a baby's brain) to make the argument that abortion is just wrong all the time. i'm not going to let anyone change my opinion by telling horror stories.

hey wavenew.gif


what if sucking babies brain is actually the procedure, would u still be ok with it?



i am pro-choice, because i dont perceive the fetus to be a human being, now i wouldnt get an abortion myself, coz i'd liek to see the fetus grow into a human, it's my human u know, anyhoot, once the baby is out of his mother's womb, wouldnt he be considered human? if he's partially out, he'd still be human on the way out no? to me, that is murder, sucking his brain out...


now is this the procedure? please correct me if i'm wrong smile.gif

: zackfan1234 Dec 5 2003, 12:47 PM

QUOTE (zackfan1234 @ Dec 5 2003, 04:10 AM)

along these lines, i am pro choice. whether that means one first trimester abortion, a history of several abortions, or a late term or "partial birth" abortion.

let me reiterate this point for you sarah. . . .

if the fetus is in a woman's body then it's an abortion. and that's fine by me. it honestly doesn't move me to think that a fetus brain would be sucked out of it's head. my apologies. it was late and i made the classic blunder in the pro life vs. pro choice debate and referred to a fetus as a baby (perhaps i was just influenced by the oringinal post). to me it's all semantics. but if it makes you feel better to think that late term abortion is about sucking the brains out of a fetus, rather than a baby, then so be it.

my point is that i don't care which words one would choose. i'm okay with abortion. i'd hate to live in a world without them. without choice. so, i'm okay with all types of abortion. because i'm alright, nay, i'm totally in support of a woman's right to one.

: ballzdeep Dec 6 2003, 02:29 PM

abortion is one of the most controversial topics. In my opinion if your pro-life fine but dont expect everyone to be like you, you can personally choose not to have an abortion but dont expect every person in the country to do it your way.

: Sulley Dec 12 2003, 12:42 PM

My opinion on abortion is is shouldn't be allowed....only in such cases that a girl is raped and becomes inpregnated...then yes, she should be able to abort the baby. But in any other case, where she gets inpregnated by willfullingly having sex with a partner...then no, the baby shouldn't be aborted.

*my opinion*

: IndicaRain Dec 13 2003, 09:35 PM

QUOTE (Sulley @ Dec 13 2003, 12:42 AM)
My opinion on abortion is is shouldn't be allowed....only in such cases that a girl is raped and becomes inpregnated...then yes, she should be able to abort the baby. But in any other case, where she gets inpregnated by willfullingly having sex with a partner...then no, the baby shouldn't be aborted.

*my opinion*

I'd like to ask you why it's ok when it's rape? Usually, when people are against abortion it's because they believe the baby/foetus should be allowed to live. Whether it's rape or not, the foetus/baby is not responsible and in all cases should be seen as having the same rights. Otherwise, it seems to me that women are being judged: if it's not your 'fault', go ahead have the abortion, if it is, face the consequences. Therefore, it's not like someone is judging abortion, but women.

And personally, I'm pro abortion, women should have the right to decide and I think the already living have more rights than a foetus. It's not an issue I'm totally comfortable with, but I believe you have to choose the 'side' you're on for such a serious matter. Especially that where I live it's illegal, and poorer people face serious problems when they have abortions and even risk going to prison or death from badly performed abortions, while richer people can go abroad or do it secretly but safely etc.

: Madcat05 Dec 14 2003, 07:34 PM

I think it's peoples own right to have the option of an abortion. But if you don't agree with abortions, don't get one.

: regilas Dec 14 2003, 07:55 PM

Well, would you kill a person with Mad Cow Disease?
No, I disagree with abortion

: Sara Dec 14 2003, 08:29 PM

QUOTE (Nishtha @ Dec 14 2003, 06:35 PM)
Whether it's rape or not, the foetus/baby is not responsible and in all cases should be seen as having the same rights.

that's exactly what i think, if it's ok in rape cases, it should be ok in consentual sex too...a fetus is a fetus either way... rolleyes.gif

: thief of dreams Dec 14 2003, 11:53 PM

a woman should have a right to choose... and partial birth abortions are nto even considered unless there is a risk to the health of the mother or baby... this law is just a stepping stone to shutting down abortions.. cause no doctor in their right mind would do a partial birth abortion just for the hell of it.. seriously...
if you take away the option of abortion then the population of unwanted children encreases as does the death rate of desperate mothers... have safe sex? sure.. its a thought.. but we all have had unprotected sex at least once... its a nice dream but in reality safe sex or abstinance is not gonna happen all the time.. yea my spelling sucks ass too.. sorry..

<->T<->O<->D<->

: Stigmata Dec 15 2003, 06:49 AM

It really makes me angry how the catholic church sticks their nose in yet another issue unrelated to them. Abortion is a choice, life is not as precious thing as it may sound. I know it sounds cruel. But i think about how i would not like to bring a person into this world of illusions and lies. Besides, a baby killed in the womb will be born again, and the cycle continues. It only a lose for the parents. And yes i know my views are somewhat off par but i am entitled to my opinions. orale.gif

: regilas Dec 15 2003, 08:42 AM

Hah

Think this out:

The mother chooses to kill somebody because it's her choice
The unformed baby that cannot think or feel, has his/her fate being decided by somebody because it has no choice.

Again, here's another example: supposing there's a person who's lost all conscious thought, well, since he/she can't think, then it's the closest relative's choice if he/she should be killed. Since he/she can't think, then it doesn't matter if you murder the helpless person.

: rev79 Dec 15 2003, 10:07 AM

QUOTE (regilas @ Dec 15 2003, 11:42 AM)


Again, here's another example: supposing there's a person who's lost all conscious thought, well, since he/she can't think, then it's the closest relative's choice if he/she should be killed. Since he/she can't think, then it doesn't matter if you murder the helpless person.

This happens every day does it? An average adult, for example, gets in a car accident and loses all memory, so their nearest relative decides to end their life?? wtf........

Crylol.gif

: regilas Dec 15 2003, 11:05 AM

QUOTE (revolutionusa @ Dec 15 2003, 11:07 AM)
QUOTE (regilas @ Dec 15 2003, 11:42 AM)


Again, here's another example: supposing there's a person who's lost all conscious thought, well, since he/she can't think, then it's the closest relative's choice if he/she should be killed. Since he/she can't think, then it doesn't matter if you murder the helpless person.

This happens every day does it? An average adult, for example, gets in a car accident and loses all memory, so their nearest relative decides to end their life?? wtf........

Crylol.gif

Yeah, abortions are worse than that, so thanks for proving my point.

According to scientists, abortions happen aproximately every 3 seconds

Oh, and by the way, should you decide whether someone's gonna live or not? Really, may as well ask, "What do you think on murder (and don't say I'm getting too emotional, cause I'm not trying to be), do you think it's okay to murder?"

"Well, yes, murder is up to the parent."

If someone has lost all conscious thought, then you're talking about killing someone when he/she hasn't even lived any life. It's crazy.

Just sharing my thoughts wink.gif

: rev79 Dec 15 2003, 11:35 AM

QUOTE (regilas @ Dec 15 2003, 02:05 PM)

Yeah, abortions are worse than that, so thanks for proving my point.



I didn't prove anything of yours. Once again, you never did make a point- you simply concocted a strange story that reeked of irrelevance.

: regilas Dec 15 2003, 11:39 AM

But it's true, you're killing someone because you didn't want a kid, or you were raped, and so on, and you're saying, "well, he/she's not thinking anything, so if we kill him/her, at least he/she won't feel it, so it's no big deal"

Sorry, man, but "it reeked of irrelevance" isn't the right response.
Now go off to bed, paps

: rev79 Dec 15 2003, 12:11 PM

Sometimes, its just gotta be done regilas, sad as it may be. That doesn't mean I agree or disagree with it. Heck, one of these days you might even have to go through it if you learn how to use your little acorn..

QUOTE
Now go off to bed, paps


????huh????


: regilas Dec 15 2003, 04:08 PM

QUOTE
one of these days you might even have to go through it if you learn how to use your little acorn..


What a lovely phrase rolleyes.gif

In response:
QUOTE
????huh????


I never knew responding depended on others

: Sara Dec 16 2003, 03:34 AM

^ stay on topic, or dont even bother posting. smile.gif

: regilas Dec 18 2003, 07:19 PM

Abortion is murder, end of discussion.

: zackfan1234 Dec 23 2003, 12:19 PM

end of your discussion, buddy. i don't agree.

: ratmgirl Dec 23 2003, 04:19 PM

QUOTE (regilas @ Dec 19 2003, 03:19 AM)
Abortion is murder, end of discussion.

Now, I do not agree with that.
I'm very pro-choice. However, people how use abortion as a form of birth control need a kick in the face.
If i were to get pregnant now, i would definitely have an abortion. I'm 22 (almost 23) and i would haev one right now. I can't afford to keep myself going so ya know.

As for it being murder, i can't understand that. A fetus doesn't have constitutional rights, therefore, it isn't murder. You're not killing a person if you have an abortion.

This debate/discussion can go on forever and people have different opinions and beliefs on the subject.

to each their own

: rev79 Dec 23 2003, 10:40 PM

^Well if you keep driving at regilas long enough he'll quote a book for you, somehow clarifying his correctness..

: regilas Dec 24 2003, 10:16 AM

QUOTE (revolutionusa @ Dec 24 2003, 12:40 AM)
^Well if you keep driving at regilas long enough he'll quote a book for you, somehow clarifying his correctness..

LOL, really, man, you can't find a counter-argument, so all you can do is get mad because I found a quote from RATM suggested Jonathan Kozol

QUOTE
A fetus doesn't have constitutional rights, therefore, it isn't murder.


That's, again, rediculous.
To the "American Eyes" many people have no constitutional rights, therefore, they have no choice as to being killed or not.
But, supposing everyone does, with or without the "American Eyes," well, you can't decide whether someone should or shouldn't live, I mean, really, I already gave the example.
It is murder, and don't think I'm getting emotional or anything, because you are killing another person.

: rev79 Dec 24 2003, 11:06 AM

QUOTE
so all you can do is get mad because I found a quote


Yes, yes..I'm absolutely furious huh.gif

: Guerrilla Dec 24 2003, 04:30 PM

regi is proof that homeschooling your child, will just breed more dumbass people.

What she was sayin regi, is that a fetus doesnt have any feelings, and under the laws of the constitution, has no rights....anyway...like rev said, waste of time.

: Moremi Dec 25 2003, 01:18 PM

QUOTE (regilas @ Dec 18 2003, 11:19 PM)
Abortion is murder

I agree. Have you ever been to this http://www.abortionismurder.com ?

However, I still believe that abortion is ok under some circumstances - if a mother's life is in danger, or in cases of rape or incest. To me, you're choosing the lesser evil by aborting the child - if that's what the mother wants. I think it's a lot more cruel to put someone through 9 months of torture knowing that she is carrying the child of her father or something of that sort ermm.gif But in some cases rape is not provable so it's probably best to leave it as a woman's choice. In the end, what a woman does to her body or her unborn child, is between her and her conscience.

: Guerrilla Dec 25 2003, 02:42 PM

Some of those arent even aborted children. Some apear to be miscariges. Thats just a christian conservative propaganda site, giving those extremist fuel to murder plan parenthood employees.

: Moremi Dec 25 2003, 03:01 PM

QUOTE (Guerrilla @ Dec 25 2003, 06:42 PM)
Some of those arent even aborted children. Some apear to be miscariges. Thats just a christian conservative propaganda site, giving those extremist fuel to murder plan parenthood employees.

By definition a miscarriage is an abortion. The only difference is a miscarriage is a natural occurrence. How do you know those are not abortions? In a miscarriage the baby is totally formed and not severed as some of the babies were in those pictures.

EDIT: If it's of any concern, the site also addresses how http://www.abortionismurder.com/buddhism.shtml, http://www.abortionismurder.com/quoran.shtml, and http://www.abortionismurder.com/hindu.shtml view abortion.

: ratmgirl Dec 25 2003, 04:29 PM

Why is it when someone has an opposing view they get shit on?
I say abortion isn't murder, i get called ridiculous. Whatever. And like i said, this debate can go on forever.
I'm done.

: Sara Dec 26 2003, 12:28 AM

QUOTE (ratmgirl @ Dec 26 2003, 01:29 PM)
Why is it when someone has an opposing view they get shit on?
I say abortion isn't murder, i get called ridiculous. Whatever. And like i said, this debate can go on forever.
I'm done.

i know...like i said before we should be more tolerent...




u clearly said it's ur opinion and u r entitled to it, like everyone else is, and in any event, ur far from radiculous, u know that and everyone knows that. wavenew.gif

: Guerrilla Dec 26 2003, 07:02 AM

I just think its hella fuckin offensive to post links to pictures of babies like that. Regardless of how you feel about abortion.

: zackfan1234 Dec 26 2003, 08:47 AM

i agree guerilla. it's like posting pictures of severly deformed babies as an argument against having children. those are the worst case scenarios, in that most abortions are done in the first trimester before they are that big or developed. how about posting the pictures of the women who bled to death trying to stick hangers up themselves before abortion was legal. safe abortion is a necessity because women died trying to get it done by any means necessary when they didn't have access to the medical procedure. you have a right to post it, but it doesn't move me to change my opinion. the pictures of dead women curled in a ball and bleeding to death is much more compelling.

: Moremi Dec 26 2003, 08:54 AM

There's nothing offensive about it.

People have posted pictures of children with their heads blown off from the bombing in Iraq. No one complained. In fact, I think most people will agree that those images need to be seen. We need to be informed of the atrocities that are being committed by our nation. In that same spirit, women need to know what abortion is. Too many women think it's a harmless act and end up sterile or dead based on misinformation.

If you find any pictures of women dying from back alley abortions, post them.

: Moremi Dec 26 2003, 09:16 AM

QUOTE (zackfan1234 @ Dec 26 2003, 12:47 PM)
it's like posting pictures of severly deformed babies as an argument against having children.

That arguement is irrational. You can't compare abortion to deformity. Some of us are arguing that abortion is murder. The two are not related.

QUOTE
those are the worst case scenarios, in that most abortions are done in the first trimester before they are that big or developed.

Some of those pictures were from the first trimester (or first three months of pregnancy). By the first trimester the child is completely formed. The baby in the second picture was 8 weeks old. huh.gif

: zackfan1234 Dec 26 2003, 09:53 AM

no offense, but after having looked at those pictures, i still believe that it's a woman's right to choose. it can't survive on it's own and it's in her body, so she can choose if she wants it there. i just don't envision it as any different than a cancer being removed. if it's going to be harmful to her and effect her quality of life a woman has a right to choose not to have a fetus in her body. most women are fully aware of the weight of their choice when they have an abortion. they don't need to be told that they are murderers. the truth is that the picture of their own lives (including a baby) is much bleaker when considering the fact that they don't want children. i work with kids born to mothers who don't want them. it is sadder than any of those pictures you can post. and there are so many children in the adoption system who never get adopted and end up in abusive foster homes. i just think it's more humane and honest to make the choice to end your pregnancy rather than inflict harm on a child born without anyone who cares about them.
and frankly, i don't care if you want to call it murder or not. legal safe abortion is a woman's right.

your site even states that birth control pills are abortion and are wrong. what would they suggest then? because this is sure starting to sound like patriarchy at its best. its like they think women should wear chastity belts. it's not a reality. and i love how in this issue, none of the blame is placed on the men who are not told to be chaste. how about telling the guys to lay off for a minute? or is that so inconceivable (sorry for usage of this word in this debate) that it can't even be suggested.

: zackfan1234 Dec 26 2003, 10:22 AM

and the murder vs. adoption section is cute. really. it's over simplifying the issues and pretending that giving a child up for adoption is not difficult. that women would not possibly feel guilty about giving away their baby? did you know that more women die in childbirth than in abortion clinics? the decision to put your body through this kind of rigor is not an easy decision. and an unwanted pregnancy has few happy endings (unless circumstances change and the mother wants to keep the child). i really think that the realities of adoption should be considered. the system doesnt have room for all the children placed in it, yet alone time to follow up on all the children in foster care. have you read in the news about how many children are abused in foster homes? adoption is not this neat little option with no consequences. how must a mother feel when she finds out about her child's abuse? and it's not permissable in all cases of adoption for a woman to see her child once she gives it up.

: Moremi Dec 26 2003, 02:58 PM

QUOTE (zackfan1234 @ Dec 26 2003, 01:53 PM)
no offense, but after having looked at those pictures, i still believe that it's a woman's right to choose.  it can't survive on it's own and it's in her body, so she can choose if she wants it there.  i just don't envision it as any different than a cancer being removed.

Even after a child is born it cannot not survive without the care of an adult but I'm sure most people would agree that it is wrong to take it's life. Based on the logic of your arguement, women should also be allowed to abort in the ninth month of pregnancy or third trimester, simply because it's apart of her body and depends on her to sustain it's life. Am I understanding you correctly?
QUOTE
if it's going to be harmful to her and effect her quality of life a woman has a right to choose not to have a fetus in her body. most women are fully aware of the weight of their choice when they have an abortion. they don't need to be told that they are murderers. the truth is that the picture of their own lives (including a baby) is much bleaker when considering the fact that they don't want children.

In some cases a woman truely can't handle the responsiblity of raising a child. But it's also true that some women are just selfish, they don't want to be tied down; don't want to ruin their figure, don't want the finanical responsiblity of raising a child. Those are other reasons for having abortions. Forgive me, but I have very little regard for people who use it a form of birth control.
QUOTE
i work with kids born to mothers who don't want them. it is sadder than any of those pictures you can post. and there are so many children in the adoption system who never get adopted and end up in abusive foster homes. i just think it's more humane and honest to make the choice to end your pregnancy rather than inflict harm on a child born without anyone who cares about them.
and frankly, i don't care if you want to call it murder or not. legal safe abortion is a woman's right.

I don't think adoption or foster care is sadder than abortion and I'm also speaking from personal experiences. It's not uncommon in the culture that I come from for children to be raised by families that are not theirs. This is mostly due to economic circumstances. A child can be sent to work for another family, at the age of 5, to supplement income for their parents and they may never see their parents again. Sometimes they are abused and unlike the US there is no recourse for them. There are also many people in this world who started out with bleak lives but were given the opportunity to live and made something of themselves. If we choose to abort children, simply because we don't want to bring them into this world to suffer, we will wipe out entire nations with that attitude. Starting in Africa. Some pharmaceutical companies are already dumping birth control devices in African nations - medicines that haven't even been approved by their own governments. It's a form of genocide, if you ask me.
QUOTE
your site even states that birth control pills are abortion and are wrong. what would they suggest then? because this is sure starting to sound like patriarchy at its best.

The site is only talking about birth control that thins the lining of the uterus to prevent implantation of a fertilized egg -- not all birth control does that. I would imagine they are in support of more natural methods. Women were practicing birth control prior to the pill. In an article by a woman from the Lakota Nation, who was also against birth control, she explained it like this: a woman's body can be compared to mother earth. When she is wet, she is fertile.

In other words, there are stages that a woman's body goes through and if you know your body, you know when you're ovulating and you can abstain from sex during those times. There are very specific and obvious things that a woman experiences when her body is preparing her for fertilization.

There are also other methods of birth control that are just as safe, like a vasectomy shifty.gif
QUOTE
its like they think women should wear chastity belts. it's not a reality. and i love how in this issue, none of the blame is placed on the men who are not told to be chaste. how about telling the guys to lay off for a minute? or is that so inconceivable (sorry for usage of this word in this debate) that it can't even be suggested.

First off, I don't remember that site discussing chastity at all. Secondly, the reason the site is geared towards women is because ultimately it's going to be the woman who makes the final decision. Even you said you weren't interested in the male opinion. To quote you: "raise your hand if you are a male and you are pro life. . . so i can smack your ass! tongue.gif"

Honestly, I think a lot of men don't participate in such discussions because they believe they have no rights.

However, I agree that men do need to take responsibilty for the children they create. There are too many dead beat dads and men who think their penis is an extension of their manhood. Not to be completely negative, there are many men who do abstain from sex and take care of their children. But as it stands now abortion is a woman's choice, so who better to discuss this issue with?

: Moremi Dec 26 2003, 03:14 PM

QUOTE (zackfan1234 @ Dec 26 2003, 02:22 PM)
and the murder vs. adoption section is cute.  really.  it's over simplifying the issues and pretending that giving a child up for adoption is not difficult.  that women would not possibly feel guilty about giving away their baby?  did you know that more women die in childbirth than in abortion clinics?  the decision to put your body through this kind of rigor is not an easy decision.  and an unwanted pregnancy has few happy endings (unless circumstances change and the mother wants to keep the child). i really think that the realities of adoption should be considered.  the system doesnt have room for all the children placed in it, yet alone time to follow up on all the children in foster care.  have you read in the news about how many children are abused in foster homes?  adoption is not this neat little option with no consequences.  how must a mother feel when she finds out about her child's abuse? and it's not permissable in all cases of adoption for a woman to see her child once she gives it up.

I'm sure many women also die from domestic violence but that's not relevant to this discussion either huh.gif Women need more education concerning their choices, whether it's prenatal care, abortion or adoption. I think adoption is an excellent alternative to abortion. The fact that abuse occurs in foster homes is not reason enough to say abortion is a better alternative. Sexual abuse occurs everywhere. Yes, I've read in the news about abuse in foster homes but I've read more about sexual abuse in catholic churches, public schools and upper class families. If you think abuse is more prevalent in foster care than in the rest of society, show me the statistics. There are many children who go into foster care to escape abuse in their homes and find the stability they need with the help of good social workers and new families that do care.

I'm not saying foster care is problem free, just that it's a better alternative.

: Guerrilla Dec 26 2003, 07:57 PM

I'm not getting back into this debate, b/c it can be argued both ways forever. It all depends on your personal morals.

Anyway though the following statement was incorect: "In other words, there are stages that a woman's body goes through and if you know your body, you know when you're ovulating and you can abstain from sex during those times. There are very specific and obvious things that a woman experiences when her body is preparing her for fertilization."

A womens eggs can be fertilized during any period of her monthly cycle, and attempting to gauge her cycle which can some times vary, is very iresponsible.

Also noone was advocating using abortion as birthcontrol, nor was anyone saying its ok to kill fully formed babies, but regardless of what contrceptives were used, sometimes shit happens.

: zackfan1234 Dec 26 2003, 10:21 PM

1) the fetus can live outside of the mothers womb at the ninth month. which is why people would not agree with abortion at that point. at that point, it's birth. so your point is what exactly? again most abortions take place long before the second trimester.

2)you have no respect for folks who use it as birth control. so then you have no problem with the majority of women who don't use it as birth control but as a last resort? most women don't have several abortions.

3)the point you made is that abuse is prevalent everywhere. my point exactly.

genocide and birth control have what to do with your point regarding foster care? you strayed a bit there. i don't think that this has anything to do with that point. i work in america. i don't know where you come from and maybe the system you described works there. but foster care is far from ideal here. look at the realities not the ideals. there have been several cases of children being found dead, or nearly starved to death by foster families. so a woman should have a baby and potentially expose it to abuse in her own home because it wasn't wanted? then, we should place these same children in a foster care system where they are betrayed yet again, and placed in another unsafe environment? what exactly is humane about that? i'm not even going to get into the discussion of how this can effect society as a whole.

besides the problem is that most women who give birth to a child have invested so much of themselves into the process that giving the baby away is not an option. where are the pro life advocates when these children are abused, starved, or emotionally destroyed by parents who don't want them? it's not their responsibility, it's the parent's, right? this is why the choice of whether or not to become a parent should remain in the hands of the people who will be held responsible.


4) the method you describe about the woman's natural cycle is suspect. a woman's natural cycle is effected by outside factors like stress (women do experience that in abundance) and illness for instance. the cycle gets disrupted and a woman can easily become pregnant when she thought it was "safe". i bet many women who end up having abortions thought it was safe to have sex when they did.

5)i'm not talking about the male opinion. in fact, i'm talking about the males responsibility in the reproductive cycle. my point has little to do with asking men for their opinions on abortion. my point is that men need to be held equally responsible. so don't twist my words. the website's question and answer section states that a woman should just be "chaste" if she doesn't want to get pregnant. it's easy for you and me to say that. but what happens if you make a mistake? women aren't allowed to make mistakes? getting pregnant can be a result of a mistake made by a woman.


we just differ in our opinions. i'm concerned about the rights of a woman to lead the life she already has vs. your concern for the potential life of a fetus.

we are just not going to agree and we are going to continue in a circular argument until the cows come home. the bottom line is that abortion is legal. whether you or anyone else likes it, it's perfectly legal for a woman to get an abortion performed by a doctor. so the debate can really be viewed as useless. i don't know why i would continue to debate it when the law is on my side anyway. smile.gif

: Guerrilla Dec 27 2003, 02:19 PM

from a person who has had foster children live in our home..trust me, for the majority, foster care is a sad system, and it seldom provied a happy life for the child.

: Moremi Dec 27 2003, 03:47 PM

QUOTE (Guerrilla @ Dec 26 2003, 11:57 PM)
I'm not getting back into this debate, b/c it can be argued both ways forever. It all depends on your personal morals.

Anyway though the following statement was incorect: "In other words, there are stages that a woman's body goes through and if you know your body, you know when you're ovulating and you can abstain from sex during those times. There are very specific and obvious things that a woman experiences when her body is preparing her for fertilization."

A womens eggs can be fertilized during any period of her monthly cycle, and attempting to gauge her cycle which can some times vary, is very iresponsible.

Also noone was advocating using abortion as birthcontrol, nor was anyone saying its ok to kill fully formed babies, but regardless of what contrceptives were used, sometimes shit happens.

Getting pregnant when you're not ovulating is extremely rare! -- more rare than winning the powerball. Most women become pregnant 4 days before ovulation and 24 hours afterward since sperm can live in the body for about 5 days. It's not irresponsible to pay attention to the changes in your body and use that to gauge your cycle. It would be irresponsible not to. Women having been doing that for centuries. How else is a woman going to know when to expect her period? Sit around and wait for it to happen? Even if your cycle is irregular your body still experiences the same changes when you ovulate, which are; changes in your cervical mucous, an increase in your body temperature and a strong(er) desire to have sex. Some women can even feel their egg break away. This only happens when you're fertile and just about all healthy women of child bearing age, experience this. Getting pregnant is not that easy. There is a small window of opportunity (about 24 hours) every month, during which a woman can become pregnant and a lot of factors, such as body temperature have to be just right. Having an abortion simply because it inconveniences you IS using it as a form of birth control. Pregnancy is very preventable. Birth control devices usually fail because they are not being used correctly. Unwanted pregnancys are, more often than not, the fault of the parents.

: Moremi Dec 27 2003, 04:04 PM

QUOTE (zackfan1234 @ Dec 27 2003, 02:21 AM)
1) the fetus can live outside of the mothers womb at the ninth month.  which is why people would not agree with abortion at that point.  at that point, it's birth.  so your point is what exactly? again most abortions take place long before the second trimester.

My point is, even after birth, the baby is reliable on the mother's body for it's nourishment. Mother's milk contains all the enzyme's and antibodies a baby needs for it's health. Infact, doctors will tell you, that the first milk that is let down by the mother, is so critical to a babies health, that children who do not recieve it are more prone to allergies and other illness. The dependency between child and mother does not end with birth. While it's true, there are other means to nourish a child besides mother's milk, that's not the way nature intended it. The other means are artificial. Also, premature babies can be kept alive by artificial means. So one can argue that a fetus is capable of living outside of a mother's womb, therefore, it's a living being and should not be aborted.
QUOTE
2)you have no respect for folks who use it as birth control. so then you have no problem with the majority of women who don't use it as birth control but as a last resort? most women don't have several abortions.

My postion has always been that it should remain a woman's choice. But personally, I only agree with abortion in cases where the mother's life is in danger, or in case of rape or incest. Birth control is highly effective and most "unwanted" pregnancies are usually the result of improper use of such devices or poor planning.
QUOTE
3)the point you made is that abuse is prevalent everywhere. my point exactly.

genocide and birth control have what to do with your point regarding foster care? you strayed a bit there. i don't think that this has anything to do with that point.

My point was about genocide and birth control not foster care. The way birth control and abortion has been used in this country and other parts of the world is extremly relevant to this discussion. In the eyes of this society, some babies are more "unwanted" than others. That was a part of the basis for founding organizations like Planned Parenthood and APAS. In the words of Planned Parenthood founder, Margaret Sanger, "The most urgent problem today is how to limit and discourage the over-fertility of the mentally and physically defective." Sanger was a racist and openly affiliated herself with people who believed that the population of blacks needed to be controlled. No matter how well meaningful Planned Parenthood presents itself today, it's mostly children of color that are not wanted and young black girls are being coerced into elective abortion and untested and unsafe birth control.
QUOTE
i work in america. i don't know where you come from and maybe the system you described works there. but foster care is far from ideal here. look at the realities not the ideals. there have been several cases of children being found dead, or nearly starved to death by foster families. so a woman should have a baby and potentially expose it to abuse in her own home because it wasn't wanted? then, we should place these same children in a foster care system where they are betrayed yet again, and placed in another unsafe environment? what exactly is humane about that? i'm not even going to get into the discussion of how this can effect society as a whole.

I was born and raised in the United States. But I have family in other parts of the world and the time I have spent overseas was more than enough to show me that the same problems you speak of exist everywhere. In fact, they are worse in other parts of the world. That's the reality. But abortion is not the solution to our problems. There needs to be moral and ethical upbringing in our families.

No, child exploitation and abuse does not "work" in Africa or Asia or India, or the even U.S. It keeps future generations from realizing their full potential. But if abortion is used as an excuse to spare children from the ills of this society, the children who will be mostly effected by that will be poor minorities.
QUOTE
besides the problem is that most women who give birth to a child have invested so much of themselves into the process that giving the baby away is not an option. where are the pro life advocates when these children are abused, starved, or emotionally destroyed by parents who don't want them? it's not their responsibility, it's the parent's, right? this is why the choice of whether or not to become a parent should remain in the hands of the people who will be held responsible.

If parenting should remain in the hands of the people who will be held responsible, then what is your defintion of responsible people who can bear children? Do people on welfare fit this definition? How about the unemployed? Or mentally retarded?
QUOTE
4) the method you describe about the woman's natural cycle is suspect. a woman's natural cycle is effected by outside factors like stress (women do experience that in abundance) and illness for instance. the cycle gets disrupted and a woman can easily become pregnant when she thought it was "safe". i bet many women who end up having abortions thought it was safe to have sex when they did.

That is incorrect. Even if your cycle is not regular or effected by stress, getting pregnant is not that easy. So many things in your body have to be just right in order for pregnancy to occur. I already responded to guerilla so I'm not going to repeat myself.
QUOTE
5)i'm not talking about the male opinion. in fact, i'm talking about the males responsibility in the reproductive cycle. my point has little to do with asking men for their opinions on abortion. my point is that men need to be held equally responsible. so don't twist my words. the website's question and answer section states that a woman should just be "chaste" if she doesn't want to get pregnant. it's easy for you and me to say that. but what happens if you make a mistake? women aren't allowed to make mistakes? getting pregnant can be a result of a mistake made by a woman.

In order for women to stay chaste men have to stay chaste, right? As I said before, the site is directed at women because they are one's who have the right to choose. This doesn't mean men should be allowed to sleep around.
QUOTE
we just differ in our opinions. i'm concerned about the rights of a woman to lead the life she already has vs. your concern for the potential life of a fetus.

That's not my only objective. I'm also concerned about the rights of women, I just don't believe abortion is answer.
QUOTE
we are just not going to agree and we are going to continue in a circular argument until the cows come home. the bottom line is that abortion is legal. whether you or anyone else likes it, it's perfectly legal for a woman to get an abortion performed by a doctor. so the debate can really be viewed as useless. i don't know why i would continue to debate it when the law is on my side anyway

The same law that says abortion is ok also banned late term abortion. Laws change all the time, just because it's the law now, doesn't make it right.

: Moremi Dec 27 2003, 04:11 PM

QUOTE (Guerrilla @ Dec 27 2003, 06:19 PM)
from a person who has had foster children live in our home..trust me, for the majority, foster care is a sad system, and it seldom provied a happy life for the child.

That has not been my experience. All of my siblings were fostered or adopted and we all turned out ok. I can also think of other success stories other than my own.

: Guerrilla Dec 27 2003, 04:15 PM

I ment it would be irisponsible for that to be your only form of birthcontrol. Anyway I'm done.

: Moremi Dec 27 2003, 04:19 PM

QUOTE (Guerrilla @ Dec 27 2003, 08:15 PM)
I ment it would be irisponsible for that to be your only form of birthcontrol. Anyway I'm done.

It's not meant to be the only form of birth control. You're supposed to use it with other methods. It greatly decreases your chances of getting pregnant.

: regilas Dec 29 2003, 12:32 PM

QUOTE (Guerrilla @ Dec 26 2003, 09:02 AM)
I just think its hella fuckin offensive to post links to pictures of babies like that. Regardless of how you feel about abortion.

How is that offensive?
It's like saying,
"I have a picture of somebody from the Iraq bombing, and he lost his arms and legs"

"Don't show me that, it's offensive."

Also: the fetus may not feel anything, but think about, again, that someone has lost all conscious thought from, as said before, but I'm not sure if you agree, Mad Cow Disease, so he's just lost in conscious thought, and you're saying that it's fine to kill him because he can't feel anything.
It doesn't make sense

: zackfan1234 Dec 29 2003, 06:55 PM

and on and on in circles we go. . .

: regilas Dec 29 2003, 08:46 PM

QUOTE (zackfan1234 @ Dec 29 2003, 08:55 PM)
and on and on in circles we go. . .

exactly

: defiance Jan 19 2004, 02:45 PM

I haven't read this whole debate, I've just read the last two pages, so sorry if anything I say is old news to you. I almost completly agree with ZDLRfan on everything I've read so far. Here is the problem with zackfans whole opinion on this subject, as well as most other pro choice people. You are constantly using domestic abuse from foster parents, or poverty related problems, as a reason to to accept abortion as a way to prevent the parent or child from having even more problems with those issues. Take this quoute "there have been several cases of children being found dead, or nearly starved to death by foster families. so a woman should have a baby and potentially expose it to abuse in her own home because it wasn't wanted? then, we should place these same children in a foster care system where they are betrayed yet again, and placed in another unsafe environment?" You are looking at those problems and using those as an excuse for abortion. But what really needs to be dealt with is those problems. If you are economicaly stable (you're not poor or politically endangered) than you have no right to abort you child. Or let me be more specific, if your child has developed from a basic cell or embryo to a fetus, you no longer have the right to take it's life. Unless you are poor, and can not properly support the child (or if your life is severly endangered by carrying the child) you have no right to abort it. But the problem in that case is not the pregnancy, or the coming child. The problem that needs to be delt with is the reasons for abortion. I do not place the childs life any higher than the mothers. But if your reason for allowing abortion is poverty,than maybe you need to think a little harder and start dealing with the problems that would make a mother want to abort her child. If a mother is so desperate that she is willing to use a hanger to abort her child, than she obviously has either serious problems in her own life (poverty for example), or she is incredibly irresponsible. So instead of dealing with the problems that drive her to abortion, let's forget the real problem and just deal with the immediate problem. That's the way zackfan seems to look at it. If you do not have any of those problems, but you still don't want to have a child, than use some form of birth control. The excuse that the baby does not feel anything or think like we do and is therefore not truly alive, is completly ridiculous. For that matter born bebies do not think the same way we do. And if it has nerves and a brain (which a live fetus obviously does) than it can feel just as much as a fully born baby. The excuse that it depends on the mother and it is therefore the mothers choice whether the baby has the right to live, is also completly ridiculous. You depend on your employer to make money so that you can live a normal life, so should they be able to decide whether you have the right to own a house? You depend on the government to enforce your rights as a worker, so should they be able to decide how you're going to live? to go really far, a foster child depends on his/her foster parents for food and shelter. Therefore they have the right to starve him/her to death. No, it does not work that way. The very fact that it does depend on you, makes you even more responsible for keeping it alive. It is the mother and fathers duty and obligation to ensure the safe and happy life of their child.

For the sake of your own image, try to refrain from statements like "whether you or anyone else likes it, it's perfectly legal for a woman to get an abortion performed by a doctor. so the debate can really be viewed as useless. i don't know why i would continue to debate it when the law is on my side anyway". If all of our morals were based on that, than we wouldn't be talking about anything other than music on this forum. The law is responsible for causing and allowing all kinds of atrocities, for you to hide behind it is a disgrace to your own image here.

Sorry if I sound arrogant or offensive in this post, it's very hard to compact such a long post into a few paragraphs without sounding harsh. And sorry for taking so long, but there's alot to say.

: ragingagainst101 Feb 8 2004, 01:11 PM

its not right to limit the amount of children a woman can have..
if they want their kid to grow up in poverty than thats their decision..

: zackfan1234 Feb 10 2004, 02:08 PM

we stopped debating this because clearly no one was going to convince anyone else to see things their way. this includes you.

i dont care how long an entry you write, or how you try to villainize my statements. the bottom line is that it's a woman's choice whether or not she wants to remain pregnant. and that's the way it should be. the decision is not yours, your mother's, or anyone's but the pregnant woman.

nothing you can say, will change my opinion on that. and nothing YOU can say will change the law which supports that. if the truth hurts you then so be it. but the law does currently support abortion as a private decision. your hot air, or any other person's opposing view doesn't change that. tongue.gif

i'm not concerned with my image, i'm concerned with expressing my opinion. i'm not discussing this because i want to be popular.

come down from your high horse before you hurt yourself. please.

: defiance Feb 10 2004, 02:36 PM

Well, you finally decided to respond to what I said. Talk about skipping around my points though. What was the point of posting? I wasn't trying to villainize anything you said, so I don't know what you're talking about. I guess you couldn't think of any points that could refute what I said. And you apperently didn't understand what I meant when I said to stop saying things like "the law protects it, so it's perfectly fine". Once again, why did you even bother posting? Did you even read the whole post?

: zackfan1234 Feb 10 2004, 02:42 PM

no i got bored half way through your tyrade. but, i did read some of it, and responded to what i thought was even worthy of a response. you missed the point. i don't give a damn what you think about the fact that the law is in support of my stance. that's just the way it is.

hm. why'd you bother posting? bored too?

: zackfan1234 Feb 10 2004, 02:45 PM

sorry it took so long for me to respond. i haven't been posting here alot lately. i've been doing that whole getting a life thing. but today, i'm taking a break and slowing down. and that's when i noticed that you have continued an already dead debate.

: defiance Feb 10 2004, 03:38 PM

QUOTE
you missed the point. i don't give a damn what you think about the fact that the law is in support of my stance. that's just the way it is.


And you still haven't gotten mine. The debate is not about whether or not the law supports it, it's about whether or not abortion is right. Like I said, if all of our morals were based on legality than the world would be a serious mess (alot worse than now that is, it's already terrible). And also like I said, nothing you've said in these posts has anything to do with my main points. But whatever, there's no point in me continuing on with this, cause I already know that you will never really bother to think about those points, and nothing will ever convince me that anyone has the right to take an unborn babies life away.

: zackfan1234 Feb 11 2004, 09:13 PM

k. if it makes you feel better, you can have the last word on this thread. this conversation is so rehashed it's boring. as you said yourself, you didn't bother reading every single post, so forgive me for not reading through yours. i'm sure if you were to skim the previous posts, you'd find that i've already addressed whatever points you feel i haven't answered to your satisfaction.

i trust we're done here. so, take care and be well. nice talkin to yah.

: Banksy Feb 17 2004, 10:45 AM

abortion is WRONG.

: moocheke Mar 1 2004, 09:51 PM

My god ! what has this country become ? That is so sick ! BUNCH OF
FUCKING ANIMALS
Yes abortion is one thing okay but i can not believe this !

: moocheke Mar 1 2004, 09:59 PM

So every measure taken to prevent getting pregnant fails just say,or raped or you find out when you are pregnent that you have a terminal illness and that abortion may even save your life...........NO ABORTION how fucking selfish ! stop fighting over a womens body LEAVE US ALONE !

: RATMROXMYSOX Mar 13 2004, 11:15 PM

I honestly can say that if it was between the baby's life or mine, i would choose mine. I mean, if i were to die, the baby would grow up without a mother, but at least afterwards i could give the baby a brother while he's in heaven. But as for other situations, such as you're in high school, too bad. that's you're problem, not the baby's. you need to stand up and be an adult about it. killing is not the right choice in my opinion. and that lump in your womb is not a ball of tissue...it's the creation of two people and their genes...it is a human being. sorry, i guess i am quite emotional about this since my brother had a stillbirth. man, i love to play with my little niece, and i can't imagine my sister having an abortion and taking the sweet little girl away(her husband wanted that at first, and now of course that thought is completely insane to them now)

: ratmgirl Mar 14 2004, 09:53 AM

QUOTE (RATMROXMYSOX @ Mar 14 2004, 03:45 AM)
killing is not the right choice in my opinion. and that lump in your womb is not a ball of tissue...it's the creation of two people and their genes...it is a human being.


I don't see abortion as murder. I don't see a fetus as being a human being within, say... one month of pregnancy.

Everyone has different opinions. I respect that.

If i were to get pregnant now, being on the pill, I'd have an abortion. I can't afford to live myself now, ,let alone wiht someone else.

: CUJO Mar 14 2004, 05:43 PM

*********************
WARNING
*********************


do not go here if you are easily offended... I warned you!!!! dont say "whyd you dou that?"




http://www.mttu.com/abort-pics/


oh my GOD


surprise.gif surprise.gif surprise.gif

: RATMROXMYSOX Mar 14 2004, 06:53 PM

People don't usually realize they're pregnant until thy start to show. and at that point, the baby is well developed into a human.

: Jingle Mar 14 2004, 07:02 PM

A couple of my buddies' mothers gave birth to them when they were 14-15 years old. I think that's incredible. I can't even fathom what is occuring in a mother's mind at that age(let alone any age). I have the utmost respect for anyone who keeps the life of their child at a difficult time. However, i have deep respect for those who choose not to give birth because of their situation in life. If one cannot support the child or is in a horrible state, perhaps that life not coming to be...well, i don't know. it is a very difficult subject for me yet--i am still unsure of what i think unsure.gif

-J

: RATM-EZLN Mar 14 2004, 07:02 PM

blink.gif
They showed us a video on abortion at school once...it was sick and sad cry.gif

: RATMROXMYSOX Mar 14 2004, 07:08 PM

QUOTE (Jingle @ Mar 15 2004, 03:02 AM)
it is a very difficult subject for me yet--i am still unsure of what i think unsure.gif

-J

It's ok. i can't imagine having a child now. i'm way too young.

: ragingagainst101 Mar 14 2004, 07:11 PM

shocking.gif

: Martyr Mar 14 2004, 07:16 PM

^ We were shown a video on abortion too, in grade 10, very disturbing, very...powerful.

By the way cujo, couldve just put it in the existing thread wink.gif

http://www.zdlr.net/board/index.php?showtopic=1136&st=135&#entry80632

: CUJO Mar 14 2004, 07:18 PM

QUOTE (Martyr @ Mar 15 2004, 03:16 AM)
^ We were shown a video on abortion too, in grade 10, very disturbing, very...powerful.

By the way cujo, couldve just put it in the existing thread wink.gif

http://www.zdlr.net/board/index.php?showtopic=1136&st=135&#entry80632

sorry...

: Casbah Mar 14 2004, 07:45 PM

QUOTE
QUOTE (Jingle @ Mar 15 2004, 03:02 AM)
it is a very difficult subject for me yet--i am still unsure of what i think 

-J 


It's ok. i can't imagine having a child now. i'm way too young.


i think we can all live safer now..knowing you feel this way, knowing that you wouldnt put that burden on humanity right now. shifty.gif


















tongue.gif


: Metzli Mar 14 2004, 07:58 PM

How wrong!! Crylol.gif

: RATMROXMYSOX Mar 14 2004, 08:20 PM

QUOTE (casbah rebel @ Mar 15 2004, 03:45 AM)
QUOTE
QUOTE (Jingle @ Mar 15 2004, 03:02 AM)
it is a very difficult subject for me yet--i am still unsure of what i think 

-J 


It's ok. i can't imagine having a child now. i'm way too young.


i think we can all live safer now..knowing you feel this way, knowing that you wouldnt put that burden on humanity right now. shifty.gif


















tongue.gif

Spenser, you're an ass! tongue.gif

: Casbah Mar 14 2004, 08:31 PM

yup yup grin.gif

: Martyr Mar 14 2004, 10:37 PM

QUOTE (CUJO @ Mar 15 2004, 03:18 AM)
QUOTE (Martyr @ Mar 15 2004, 03:16 AM)
^ We were shown a video on abortion too, in grade 10, very disturbing, very...powerful.

By the way cujo, couldve just put it in the existing thread  wink.gif

http://www.zdlr.net/board/index.php?showtopic=1136&st=135&#entry80632

sorry...

Not a prob, was jus sayin smile.gif

: dankru Mar 15 2004, 05:23 AM

QUOTE
People don't usually realize they're pregnant until thy(sic) start to show. and at that point, the baby is well developed into a human.


I doubt how accurate this statement is.

Pregnant women have an idea they are pregnant WELL before it starts to show....you know morning sickness and other conditions associated with pregnancy.

: RATMROXMYSOX Mar 15 2004, 12:15 PM

Good point. but i am still pro-life. if it was me, and i made the decision of having sex before i was ready to even take care of a child, i would have to have the baby. or at least i think my parents would force me to. (they did that to my sister)

: Casbah Mar 17 2004, 04:48 PM

ive said it before and ill say it again, the prospect of rox spawning a child anytime in the near future is frightening

: Black_n_red_flag Mar 18 2004, 09:22 AM

I don't believe in killing anyone, although alot of kids who were accidental go into care like I watched in a video at school and they turned out pretty awful, though I'm not steryotyping people because i know loads of really cool people who were accidental. So I'm not sure???

: Moremi Mar 18 2004, 09:40 AM

QUOTE (casbah rebel @ Mar 17 2004, 08:48 PM)
ive said it before and ill say it again, the prospect of rox spawning a child anytime in the near future is frightening

Oh hush! She would be a good mom tongue.gif

: RATMROXMYSOX Mar 21 2004, 08:12 PM

if i was casbah's mom, i'd beat him with a bag of oranges.

: Banksy Mar 27 2004, 02:38 PM

i think abortion is wrong especially late on in pregmancy. the laws here in england on abortion as well make me sick if the child has a disability the child is aloud to be aborted alot later on in development than if it doesnt have a disability. also the methods of how the bady is killed as well are very disturbing. i dont think the genneral public here in england understand what it is all about and take the situation lightly, i dont know about america. However iam not against contraseption or sex before marriage and that stuff. i actually think that contraseption is often the right choice and people should be more educated about the use of it and abortion as a whole.

: Banksy Mar 27 2004, 02:41 PM

please visit this site for more information on abortion


http://www.spuc.org.uk/index.htm

: grimeline Mar 29 2004, 12:34 PM

iam pro-choice. if i had a say in being born a smack baby to a smack head mom i would much rather have been killed before birth, but thats just my opion

: Banksy Mar 29 2004, 01:30 PM

yeah i understnad your opinion just i think if contraception was taken into more consideration there would of been no risks of a smack head baby being born unless the mother wanted to go ahead with having a child but then abortion wouldnt be an option would it.

: Manifest Mar 29 2004, 02:16 PM

my thoughts are kick her in the stomach... kidding

: Moremi Mar 29 2004, 02:58 PM

QUOTE (Manifest @ Mar 29 2004, 06:16 PM)
my thoughts are kick her in the stomach... kidding

ohno.gif ermm.gif funny.

: elisium Mar 29 2004, 03:11 PM

QUOTE (kawaii_buttercup @ Mar 29 2003, 12:08 AM)
NO partial birth abortions. That's just SICK! The baby will feel his/her life being sucked out in such a brutal way......
I myself am pro-choice....to a certain degree. I agree that abortions should only be performed in dire situations, when the mother's life is in danger, rape or incest....what good will it be when your child grows up and wonders who's his/her father? That would be quite psychologically damaging if you tell them that their daddy's a rapist!!!

this is basically what happened to my sister. if is ever see that fucker again ill ill beat him within ajn inch of his life. this guy drug and rapped my sister. she then got pregnant and choose to have the baby. my niece is three now im thinking what should she tell her when she gets old enough. idont know what to do or tell her.

: Moremi Mar 30 2004, 06:53 AM

That's really sad sad.gif I hope it was reported to the police. Did she keep the baby for religious reasons? spiritual? I've had women tell me that they would never abort even if the pregnancy resulted from rape and they always gave religious reasons for doing this.

: Banksy Mar 30 2004, 10:24 AM

the problem is you can never stop it. if it is made illegul simply it would continue illegully "with a bottle of whisky and a coat hanger" as they say. And there will always be sad casses like pregmancy because of rape where an abortion could be considered as an option.

: defiance Mar 30 2004, 07:10 PM

QUOTE
the problem is you can never stop it. if it is made illegul simply it would continue illegully "with a bottle of whisky and a coat hanger" as they say. And there will always be sad casses like pregmancy because of rape where an abortion could be considered as an option.


I doubt that people would be using coat hangers to abort their babies if they didn't have good reason for an abortion. Unless they live in terrible poverty, or they were raped, or their lives are in danger because of the baby, there would be no logical reason for an abortion. I would totally understand why elisiums sister might want an abortion (although clearly it is not as major of a problem there as with some other cases), because it was the result of such a horrible experience. But I have little patience for people who decide to have an abortion just because they weren't careful enough to not get pregnant and now they don't want the baby. Unless it is totally neccessary it should not be allowed.

QUOTE
this is basically what happened to my sister. if is ever see that fucker again ill ill beat him within ajn inch of his life. this guy drug and rapped my sister. she then got pregnant and choose to have the baby. my niece is three now im thinking what should she tell her when she gets old enough. idont know what to do or tell her.


I'm sorry that that happened. Hopefully everything will go well from here. How is your sister doing at this point? I hope that it is going well now.

: Banksy Mar 31 2004, 09:25 AM

im sorry what happend to his sister as well and i could completely understand if she had wanted an abortion however i think abortion for convinience or carelesness is wrong think of the young child elisium now has for a neice she wouldnt be here if his sister had an abortion.

: defiance Mar 31 2004, 09:49 AM

QUOTE
im sorry what happend to his sister as well and i could completely understand if she had wanted an abortion however i think abortion for convinience or carelesness is wrong think of the young child elisium now has for a neice she wouldnt be here if his sister had an abortion.


That's how I feel about it too. But still, she would've had much more reason for an abortion than many people who have them, as you said, for convenience. It's not just the womans rights, it's the unborn childs rights.

: Banksy Mar 31 2004, 09:58 AM

yeah thats very tue but in some cases like rape its not the womans fault she got pregment just the rapist so i think they should be dealt with seriously and the women in these cases should have some kind of benefits

: elisium Mar 31 2004, 02:15 PM

thanx for the support. my sister choose to keep my neice because i really dont know why she has her reasons i guess? im thankful she did my neice did the greatest super smart. i love her. w00t.gif

: zapatista Apr 12 2004, 08:16 PM

This is scary this guy was actually able to stop the building of a Planned Parenthood Center...

----------------------
The Darling of Anti-Choice


By Eleanor J. Bader


Like all anti-abortion zealots, Chris Danze hates Planned Parenthood. The Texan minces no words, calling the group “a social movement to create sexual chaos in our neighborhoods and our families.” But unlike other fanatics, Danze has done more than picket clinics and menace reproductive healthcare providers. He has organized a boycott of building suppliers—including air-conditioning, drywall, electrical, heating, and plumbing subcontractors—that halt- ed the construction of a 10,000 square foot Planned Parenthood facility in Austin for two-and-a-half months. 


A 48-year-old devoutly Catholic business owner, Danze has for years been a presence at anti-abortion events. His wife, Sheri, coordinates the Gabriel Project, a “crisis pregnancy center” run by Austin’s Archdiocese. Danze told the Austin Chronicle that his interest is in “defending the primary institution of our nation...the family. I’m not particularly interested in politics.” 


This humble retort, and others like it, have made Danze the anti-choice movement’s current darling. What’s more, his campaign—under the auspices of the Austin Area Pro-Life Concrete Contractors and Suppliers Association—marks the first time abortion foes have successfully used the threat of economic sanctions to delay a project. A similar effort, orchestrated in 1998 in Lincoln, Nebraska, failed when the building contractor refused to buckle. 


Not so in Austin. Danze’s boycott zeroed in on anyone and everyone who might assist in the building of what he calls a “child-killing compound.”  


Two letters announcing plans to economically trample those who help Planned Parenthood were sent to more than 700 tradespeople working within 60 miles of Austin. The first was mailed in mid-September; the second a month-and-a- half later. At the same time, a host of anti-abortion Internet sites, coupled with advisories from the Christian Broadcasting Network, catapulted Danze into the national limelight. The effort worked. 


Planned Parenthood of the Texas Capital Region got word of Danze’s success on November 4, 2003, five weeks after ground for the new facility was broken. A letter from James Browning, president of the Browning Construction Company, a firm hired in 2002 to coordinate oversight of the building project, disclosed the shift: “We have requested that the construction contract be terminated because we are unable to secure and retain adequate subcontractors and suppliers to complete the project in a timely manner.” 


“The news came as a real shock to us but we acted quickly to involve the public in decrying this campaign of intimidation against us,” says Danielle Tierney, a Planned Parenthood spokesperson. “This is about...blacklisting, bullying, and harassing those you don’t agree with. If we allow something like this to happen, what does it say about our values?” 


Since Browning’s pull-out, Tierney reports a phenomenal show of support from reproductive freedom stalwarts. “We’ve gotten phone calls and emails from all over the U.S., as well as numerous financial contributions,” she says. “It has become the joke around here that Danze is the best fundraiser we’ve ever had. We exceeded our 2003 goal by almost 50 percent; our goal was $720,000 and we raised $1,078,000 by the end of December. We’ve also had calls from loads of contractors and subcontractors. They’ve flooded in, offering to work for us.” A signature ad in the Austin American Statesman, signed by more than 1,300 people who pledged to support Planned Parenthood’s work to promote medically accurate sex education, gyn care, birth control, and abortion, was posted within weeks of Browning’s pull-out. 


In addition, six days after Browning’s announcement, the besieged organization held its annual public affairs luncheon, their largest fundraising event of the year. “The timing just happened,” Tierney says. “We had 500 guests and raised $180,000. Part of this total, $33,000, came from an impromptu, on-the-spot, appeal.” 


While such encouragement has been gratifying, Planned Parenthood staffers and supporters can’t help but find Danze’s threats—and Browning’s capitulation—galling. “Danze’s efforts halted the construction of a facility that will serve more than 20,000 people a year,” says Tierney. 


“Texas leads the U.S. in the number of uninsured people. A quarter of the people in Austin are uninsured and 93 percent of Texas counties have no abortion providers. The majority of our patients are Latina, uninsured, and between 18 and 34 years old. What is so appalling is the willingness of the anti’s to declare victory at any cost. Here we are trying to help more women get access to family planning, HIV tests, and STD and cancer screenings, and the people who oppose abortion, oppose our effort to provide women with essential health care services that have nothing to do with ending a pregnancy.” 


Construction of the new Planned Parenthood clinic resumed in January—without press attention or public hooplah. This time Planned Parenthood will serve as general contractor for the facility. “We’ll hire all the subcontractors and oversee all the work ourselves,” says Tierney, “so that the project can be completed by late Fall 2004.” 


Meanwhile, Danze and friends are likely gloating over the many ways that Roe has been impeded. In addition to the boycott, last year the Texas legislature passed stringent licensing requirements for clinics and imposed a 24-hour waiting period on women seeking abortions. Both went into effect on January 1.

: Casbah Apr 12 2004, 08:23 PM

i heard on the news some conservative nut-job is starting a boycott on the girl scouts because they support Planned Parenthood, has anybody else heard about this?

: zapatista Apr 12 2004, 08:27 PM

Pro-life group wants Girl Scout councils
to divulge Planned Parenthood ties


Associated Press

FORT WORTH - Nearly 80 percent of the nation's Girl Scout councils will not say whether they have affiliations with Planned Parenthood, a pro-life group announced today.

A survey by American Life League's STOPP International stemmed from controversy in Waco, where the Bluebonnet Council of Girl Scouts severed its ties with Planned Parenthood in February after Pro-Life Waco waged a Girl Scout cookie boycott. Some parents in nearby Crawford, upset over the affiliation, also had taken their daughters out of troops.

STOPP International said it asked 315 Girl Scout councils whether they had a relationship with Planned Parenthood, which provides various education and health services, including abortions.

While 249 of the councils did not answer the question, 17 reported having ties and 49 said they do not, according to STOPP International. Some "relationships" include a troop inviting a Planned Parenthood official to speak, girls earning a badge for attending a Planned Parenthood event and the two organizations co-sponsoring events. The survey results were announced today in Waco, about 90 miles south of Fort Worth.

The Bluebonnet Council, which oversees troops in the Waco area and 13 other counties, had allowed its logo to be used on materials for two sex-education seminars sponsored by Planned Parenthood. The council also gave the Planned Parenthood of Central Texas executive director, Pam Smallwood, a "woman of distinction" award last year.

Smallwood said STOPP's efforts were intimidation tactics but that Waco's Planned Parenthood will keep hosting the "excellent, medically accurate" seminar for fifth- through ninth-graders. The program addresses puberty and does not mention abortion, she said.

"It's very sad that people try to spend their time preventing women, men and adolescents from obtaining accurate medical information," she said today.

Smallwood said the Girl Scouts organization obviously was not intimidated either, evident by the large number of councils that did not respond to STOPP's survey.

Jim Sedlak, executive director of Stafford, Va.-based STOPP International, said his group is not at war with Girl Scouts but is trying to protect youngsters from the "evils" of Planned Parenthood. STOPP International is a Christian-based organization trying to put Planned Parenthood out of business, according to its Web site.

Officials with New York-based Girl Scouts did not immediately return calls seeking comment Monday.

About 2.9 million girls nationwide are in Girl Scouts of the USA, which was founded in 1912 and chartered by Congress in 1950.



Now, I'm not exactly for abortion... ermm.gif I must admit.. but planned parenthood is a good organization.. that does alot more then perform abortions.. Pro-Life people go to far... they are all a bunch of nut jobs.

: Casbah Apr 12 2004, 08:39 PM

QUOTE
Now, I'm not exactly for abortion...  I must admit.. but planned parenthood is a good organization.. that does alot more then perform abortions..

thats actually the same way i feel....i dont think anybody has the right to tell women what to do with their bodies, its none of these peoples fucking business to be telling them what they cant do

: Dataika Apr 12 2004, 08:43 PM

I see the Christian Nazis have decided to "hijack" the thread.

Let's look at the facts; one, a fetus cannot think nor can it reason. It is not an actual human being. Two, just because something can feel does not mean it is human. Animals can feel too, are they EQUAL to human beings? Of course not.

It's absolutely hilarious that fundamentalists preach anti-abortion sentiments while chewing on a T-Bone steak. The principles are the same.

However, there is no clear cut right or wrong on this issue. Therefore it should be the WOMAN'S CHOICE.

: zapatista Apr 12 2004, 08:47 PM

QUOTE (Dataika @ Apr 12 2004, 11:43 PM)
I see the Christian Nazis have decided to "hijack" the thread.

who the hell are you talking to? huhipb.gif

: red@tm.net Apr 12 2004, 09:56 PM

although i don't like the thought of a future life not being given a chance. i have to say its the woman who should be able to decide. if she wants to live with the feeling of what if then thats fine with me.

i personaly would not want my wife or girlfriend to abort my child. but thats my opinion

: Sara Apr 12 2004, 10:43 PM

QUOTE (Dataika @ Apr 13 2004, 04:43 PM)
I see the Christian Nazis have decided to "hijack" the thread.


no. ppl are expressing their point of view like u r, no need for such lingo. rolleyes.gif

: Dataika Apr 12 2004, 11:02 PM

QUOTE (zapatista @ Apr 13 2004, 04:47 AM)
QUOTE (Dataika @ Apr 12 2004, 11:43 PM)
I see the Christian Nazis have decided to "hijack" the thread.

who the hell are you talking to? huhipb.gif

I was kidding around. You people need to REALLY lighten up.

QUOTE
no. ppl are expressing their point of view like u r, no need for such lingo. rolleyes.gif


I know, I was joking. Defiance knows I don't really think he is a Nazi. Although regilas on the other hand... wink.gif laugh.gif

Although I would like to add that it is pretty Nazi-like to base a LAW on something religious and on nothing more than your opinion on the subject matter.

: Holter Apr 12 2004, 11:05 PM

i think if abortion is allowed, it needs to be so that two signatures are required legally for an abortion. Of course this would be barring instances of rape and such. Hmm..then it would be difficult to prove that.

I just dont think it should be up to the woman solely. That is such bullshit.

: Sara Apr 12 2004, 11:39 PM

ok dataika, i didnt knowu were kidding


two signatures...well, if i have ababy, 9months, in me....well...no i wouldnt want to think i'd need the guy's signature...damn that would suck so bad, i hope they never pass such laws unsure.gif

: Holter Apr 12 2004, 11:53 PM

well the way that I feel is that If I were to get my girlfriend pregnant, I would want to have a say in the life of my child. Just because the woman carries the child doesnt mean that its hers alone. If my girlfriend had an abortion with my child and didnt tell me about it, or did it against my wishes, i would think that should be some sort of crime.

: rev79 Apr 12 2004, 11:58 PM

QUOTE (BholteRage @ Apr 13 2004, 02:53 AM)
well the way that I feel is that If I were to get my girlfriend pregnant, I would want to have a say in the life of my child.  Just because the woman carries the child doesnt mean that its hers alone.  If my girlfriend had an abortion with my child and didnt tell me about it, or did it against my wishes, i would think that should be some sort of crime.

I agree. How come the man can't be a part of the decision-making process before birth, but after the baby comes, the woman is all about 'live up to your responsibilities?? It should be up to both before, during, and after!

: Sara Apr 13 2004, 12:03 AM

^ if u guys had an agreement, then yeah ok a crime...maybe


but if it was like not planned...far i wouldnt go ahead with it, coz my bf feels ready but i dont...that's jsut me thu.

: zapatista Apr 13 2004, 12:05 AM

QUOTE (Dataika @ Apr 13 2004, 02:02 AM)
QUOTE (zapatista @ Apr 13 2004, 04:47 AM)
QUOTE (Dataika @ Apr 12 2004, 11:43 PM)
I see the Christian Nazis have decided to "hijack" the thread.

who the hell are you talking to? huhipb.gif

I was kidding around. You people need to REALLY lighten up.

ok.. haha I thought you ment me.. and i was like.. hey! I just posted a dang article! It's all good... sorry about that.. unsure.gif

: Holter Apr 13 2004, 12:06 AM

Yeah well thats the main problem. We hear all the time about how we need to shape up and become responsible, because any guy can make a baby, but it takes a man to be a father. Wheres the part that says, unless she doesnt want the baby so you dont get a say?

Its annoying and its unfair. We have just as much responsibility to that child when you are pregnant as you do.

: Sara Apr 13 2004, 12:08 AM

^ u dont have as much responsibilities, ur not the one pushing the frikkin couch out of ur vagina.

if ur so keen on babies, make them.

: Holter Apr 13 2004, 12:11 AM

Well than if you werent ready you shouldnt have been having sex. Thats a huge responsibility that comes along with having sex. BTW i dont mean you in particular, this is all hypothetical. I dont have a pregnant girlfriend or anything....

: Sara Apr 13 2004, 12:11 AM

ok i would like to apologize if i sound defenisive, i just fully disagree smile.gif


but yeah go ahead, if u and ur gfs agree on this, fantastic u guys smile.gif

: Sara Apr 13 2004, 12:12 AM

i would like to clarify that ppl dont have sex to make children, so yeah, if i fall pregnant whne im not ready, i'll abort and i wont even ask him bout it, and if he wants to end it then, well then it wasnt meant to be.

: rev79 Apr 13 2004, 12:14 AM

QUOTE (Sarah @ Apr 13 2004, 03:12 AM)
i would like to clarify that ppl dont have sex to make children,

Some do, Sarah

: Holter Apr 13 2004, 12:14 AM

QUOTE
^ u dont have as much responsibilities, ur not the one pushing the frikkin couch out of ur vagina.

if ur so keen on babies, make them.


Thats not fair. I dont have a vagina, and its not a part of who a Man is. And I do have the same amount of responsibilities as you do. Thats really not fair to men to say that.

: Holter Apr 13 2004, 12:16 AM

Dont you see the otherside to that though? HOw is that fair in any way to the guy involved? That would bring me to tears, thats an abuse of power and trust IMO.

: Sara Apr 13 2004, 12:20 AM

QUOTE (revolutionusa @ Apr 13 2004, 08:14 PM)
QUOTE (Sarah @ Apr 13 2004, 03:12 AM)
i would like to clarify that ppl dont have sex to make children,

Some do, Sarah

ok for those who do, then uy can preach to them bout abortion and all that.



as for guys not haivng a vagina, exactly my point, u will never know what it's like to be pregnant, and the pain that goes with it and the pain of childbirth, so dont tell me u r in as much reponsibility for the child DURING pregnancy.


if u and ur gf decide to keep the baby, thats so sweet, great, and it would be nice to see it all work out.


in my view, only mine, i am not saying everyone should be like that, it's not his choice but mine, coz i go thru the pergnancy,and birth and chances of post traumatic stress disorder...yeah.

: Sara Apr 13 2004, 12:23 AM

ok im out...whatever u guys wanna talk bout...

: rev79 Apr 13 2004, 12:24 AM

^Yeah, and we're right there with ya enduring the same stress, baby..you just don't even know!

: Holter Apr 13 2004, 12:24 AM

QUOTE
as for guys not haivng a vagina, exactly my point, u will never know what it's like to be pregnant, and the pain that goes with it and the pain of childbirth, so dont tell me u r in as much reponsibility for the child DURING pregnancy.


Any real man would see to it that the whole of the responsibility doesnt fall solely on your shoulders.

QUOTE
in my view, only mine, i am not saying everyone should be like that, it's not his choice but mine, coz i go thru the pergnancy,and birth and chances of post traumatic stress disorder...yeah.


I understand that this is your opinion. And i respect that. The way I feel is that it needs to be his decision as well.

: zapatista Apr 13 2004, 12:29 AM

QUOTE (revolutionusa @ Apr 13 2004, 03:24 AM)
^Yeah, and we're right there with ya enduring the same stress, baby..you just don't even know!

I'm going to have to say, that guys don't even know, you think you do, and sure, there is some stress on the guys too.. but trust me.. it's not the same. Sorry fellas.. it's just not.

: Holter Apr 13 2004, 12:33 AM

sure theres more stress for you personally, like your health, but thats not the point here. If you are pregnant, it needs to be the decision of bothe parties involved to have an abortion. And if you are concerned about your health, then maybe you shouldnt be having sex to begin with. Thats how i feel.

: Sara Apr 13 2004, 12:36 AM

ok well i hope it works out for all ermm.gif

: Holter Apr 13 2004, 12:39 AM

ok Sarah, i will stop. I got the point tongue.gif

: rev79 Apr 13 2004, 12:51 AM

QUOTE (BholteRage @ Apr 13 2004, 03:33 AM)
sure theres more stress for you personally, like your health, but thats not the point here. If you are pregnant, it needs to be the decision of bothe parties involved to have an abortion. And if you are concerned about your health, then maybe you shouldnt be having sex to begin with. Thats how i feel.

Hit the nail right on the head!

: zapatista Apr 13 2004, 12:54 AM

all I'm saying.. is that two signature thing is dangerous. there are fathers that dissapper.. the woman might not know who the father is, the guy could try and be vindictive and not sign, to be an asshole... you can't do that.. you just can't. it's not right.

: Holter Apr 13 2004, 12:59 AM

glad you agree rusa

and zapatista, I dont think that you should be able to use and abortion to get out of a lousy relationship.

I think that an abortion should only be allowed in certain circumstances. Rape. Your health at risk. these types of things.

I understand that people can be low lifes and use this as leverage, or be an asshole about it. All im saying is the guy should be involved somehow, but you would need to work out the legislative kinks for situations like rape, unknokwn father(uggh), the items you listed.

: rev79 Apr 13 2004, 01:05 AM

QUOTE (zapatista @ Apr 13 2004, 03:54 AM)
all I'm saying.. is that two signature thing is dangerous. there are fathers that dissapper.. the woman might not know who the father is, the guy could try and be vindictive and not sign, to be an asshole... you can't do that.. you just can't. it's not right.

Well, this idea is not even relevant anyhow..but if the woman were having an abortion, and the guy disappeared, big deal right? I'd disappear for damn sure anyway, if I wanted my woman to have the baby that I helped create and she refused. I don't understand how you girls can be so adamant about making the father stand up and be a man, but not let the same man be a part of the decision-making process just because it didn't come out of his body.

: zapatista Apr 13 2004, 01:08 AM

dude.. first off.. I'm not for abortion.. I would never have an abortion.. and if i was in a commited relationship.. there would be no way in hell i would have an abortion.. because, we could work it out together.. all i'm saying.. is i can't make those decisions for anyone else.. that's all i'm sayin.. unsure.gif

edit: and you have a point about guys not having rights before.. but soon as the baby is born.. it's like "where the pampers at.. where's my child support" yea, i dig.. I'm just saying.. well, hope fully you know what i'm saying.. ermm.gif

: rev79 Apr 13 2004, 01:10 AM

QUOTE (zapatista @ Apr 13 2004, 04:08 AM)
dude.. first off.. I'm not for abortion.. I would never have an abortion.. and if i was in a commited relationship.. there would be no way in hell i would have an abortion.. because, we could work it out together.. all i'm saying.. is i can't make those decisions for anyone else.. that's all i'm sayin..

^Good, glad to hear it. Don't hyperventilate on me like Sarah just did..
..I only started getting peeved because it sounded like the man should be dropped like a hot potatoe if he didn't go along with the abortion.

: Sara Apr 13 2004, 01:22 AM

QUOTE (Sarah @ Apr 13 2004, 08:11 PM)
ok i would like to apologize if i sound defenisive, i just fully disagree smile.gif


but yeah go ahead, if u and ur gfs agree on this, fantastic u guys smile.gif

just to quote myself, yeah i was real horrible wasnt i revolutionusa.

: rev79 Apr 13 2004, 01:24 AM

QUOTE (Sarah @ Apr 13 2004, 04:22 AM)
revolutionusa.

No. Are we back on a username basis now??

: Sara Apr 13 2004, 01:31 AM

u want me to call u by ur first name on the forum? ok tony.

: rev79 Apr 13 2004, 01:41 AM

QUOTE (Sarah @ Apr 13 2004, 04:31 AM)
u want me to call u by ur first name on the forum? ok tony.

I don't give a shit! Call me Binky the Clown, if you like

: Sara Apr 13 2004, 01:43 AM

i get wronged for calling u by ur username andi get wronged for calling u by ur first name...ok then.

: Holter Apr 13 2004, 01:55 AM

OH BOY, the mods are offtopic.gif

: Sara Apr 13 2004, 02:01 AM

yeah my bad, continue u guys. smile.gif

: Holter Apr 13 2004, 02:03 AM

nope i think its done/ just messin with you guys.




zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz time

: Banksy Apr 13 2004, 03:58 AM

QUOTE (Sarah @ Apr 13 2004, 08:12 AM)
i would like to clarify that ppl dont have sex to make children, so yeah, if i fall pregnant whne im not ready, i'll abort and i wont even ask him bout it, and if he wants to end it then, well then it wasnt meant to be.

i don't see why people take it so lightly and just kill the fetus ffs in 9 monts or less it will be a baby a human being with feelings and emotions and everything but pepole only think of themselves and abort if women arent prepared to have a child they shouldnt get themselves into the situation where they can abort. be more responsable in bed that all it takes if you dont want a child.

: rev79 Apr 13 2004, 05:31 AM

QUOTE (Sarah @ Apr 13 2004, 04:43 AM)
i get wronged for calling u by ur username andi get wronged for calling u by ur first name...ok then.

No, I didn't wrong you for anything. Call me whatever you want- I could care less, I'm not trying to be anonymous around here.

Abortion is perfectly ok in my book, pro-choice all the way. When it becomes a problem is when a woman would think she possesses the only right to make a decision in the case of a couple who may or may not have been together for awhile, and who may or may not be financially stable enough. Doesn't matter- if one of the two wants it to happen, it should happen. Then, you do what you have to do to get along. No one is ever completely ready for children, unless you're a celebrity, so some help is usually needed. What you don't do, however, is just say 'fuck it' and throw your arms in the air, grounding yourself to the fact that it would be impossible. Then you might have a poor dad, who already knows its going to be a boy, feeling robbed not only of his right to be a father but also(in Sarah's case) the right to continue a relationship! How cruel..I hope not many others think this way.

: red@tm.net Apr 13 2004, 08:34 AM

sorry girls you know i love you two, but i agree with the guys on this one.

thats something that the guy helped create, thats part of him too. i think the guy should at least be able to stop an abortion from happening. but i can also see where the girls are coming from, the guy can easily ditch you and run away after doing this, so i'm kinda torn on it. and i'm just speaking from my heart on this one.

if my wife or girlfriend was pregnant i'd want her to have that kid, and i would do what i could to try and convince her of that. even if that means making the ultimate sacrifice "gulp", marriage. of course god willing the woman would have to accept. lol. but thats just me.

: Banksy Apr 13 2004, 10:37 AM

if i got a girl pregmenant id stay with her and go through with it whatever happened. I would have to love the girl anyway for her to become pregmant

: red@tm.net Apr 13 2004, 10:52 AM

QUOTE
I would have to love the girl anyway for her to become pregmant


bingo, me too. so i would have no problem staying with her if it were to happen.

: Banksy Apr 13 2004, 12:44 PM

yeah thats the way it should be if its not at least make sure your well protected

: Sara Apr 13 2004, 03:07 PM

i would like to clarify something, um if i decide to have an abortion coz i dont feel im ready, then it would be something i would give thought to, and a lot of thought, it wont be something like "fuck it, let's abort the baby" no it wont be like that, and i dont think that any woman can go thru the process of abortion without thinking it thru..!

as for it ending a relationship, well i hope it doesnt come to this, but i am not going to keep a baby that i am not ready to have for 9months then for the rest of my life, because the bf thought i was ready, he cannot think for me...and if he decides it's either keeping the baby or losing him, then i'd lose the bf, because i wont keep a child to keep a bf, having a child is not a game, it's a forever type of thing.

again this is what i think.

mellow.gif

: Holter Apr 13 2004, 03:16 PM

QUOTE
he cannot think for me


and you cannot think for him, and that is why I believe that a man should have the right to be a part of the decision making.

: Sara Apr 13 2004, 03:18 PM

^ yes he cannot think for me and i cannot think for him and when the baby is in my uterus for 9months, yes it is solely my decision to keep him or not.


done, im out.

: Holter Apr 13 2004, 03:23 PM

LOL, oh well. didnt mean to make you upset man.

: donellymae Apr 13 2004, 05:12 PM

[/QUOTE]
I think it's pretty sick when a woman has had more than one abortion. It is not supposed to be used as a form of birth control. Get on the pill...the shot... If they HAVE to abort, the unwanted pregnacies should be aborted right away. What really gets me is that abortion is legal, yet in the Lacy Peterson case, they are trying to nail her husband with TWO counts of murder, not just ONE. Is it because he wanted the baby dead and not her? Just because a woman has the right to choose what to do with her body, doesn't mean it's not affecting another body. Or even the father of the baby. When I think of the pro-choice and pro-life debate, I'm not really sure where I stand. Ofcourse I don't want women to have to resort to the whole dirty alley abortion, even though maybe if they did, they would reconsider getting pregnant in the first place and be a little more careful. But the women's right to choose goes a little further than abortion. It's illegal for a minor to drink alcoholic beverages, and could be fatal if given to a baby, and even after studies have shown the effects of Fetal Alcohol Syndrome, some women still drink while they're pregnant and it's LEGAL. I myself can't understand why a woman who could have a healthy child, not a rape or incest victim, would want to have an abortion. I think that its kind of cowardly. Instead of giving birth and trying to take care of her own "mistake", or giving the baby up for adoption, she is only taking the easy way out. I think that if it's just a "mistake", that you made your bed, so lay in it. Maybe people should consider preventing unwanted pregnancies, not aborting them.

: zapatista Apr 14 2004, 01:39 PM

well, for those of you guys who say guys should have a say in weather a woman has an abortion or not, how about this... flip it around.. the girl gets pregnant and desides to keep the baby, but the guy wants her to have an abortion. should the guy have any say at all in that situation, or should he just be forced to face up to his responsibilitys?

: Holter Apr 14 2004, 01:45 PM

Well, thats basically what we have these days isnt it? I mean at this point we have no sau, so we basically have to go with what the woman says. I totally see your guys side in this, im just saying its not fair that we have to sit back and not get to make a choice. We must be involved IMO

: seditious beats Apr 14 2004, 04:45 PM

I think it's only natural that the man have an opinion, but I do not think they should have any legal say in the matter. If she decides to have the baby or not, it's ultimately up to la mujer.

: red@tm.net Apr 14 2004, 05:01 PM

QUOTE
well, for those of you guys who say guys should have a say in weather a woman has an abortion or not, how about this... flip it around.. the girl gets pregnant and desides to keep the baby, but the guy wants her to have an abortion. should the guy have any say at all in that situation, or should he just be forced to face up to his responsibilitys?


ah, you stole that from me! thumbdown.gif
nonono.gif

: Holter Apr 14 2004, 05:47 PM

QUOTE (seditious beats @ Apr 14 2004, 05:45 PM)
If she decides to have the baby or not, it's ultimately up to la mujer.

hmmm...disagree.

If her health or the health of the baby is in question, fine.

What Im trying to avoid is a situation where the girl gets pregnant, knows about it, and gets an abortion without even telling the father. However that needs to happen is what I would like. Im no lawyer so i dont know about writing it into a law, or requiring signatures, but thats the way I feel.

: zapatista Apr 14 2004, 09:19 PM

QUOTE (BholteRage @ Apr 14 2004, 04:45 PM)
Well, thats basically what we have these days isnt it?  I mean at this point we have no sau, so we basically have to go with what the woman says.  I totally see your guys side in this, im just saying its not fair that we have to sit back and not get to make a choice.  We must be involved IMO

so your saying you think if the guy WANTS her to have an abortion he should have a say? What kind of say do you want? You can't make someone have an abortion and you can't make someone not have an abortion.

: rev79 Apr 14 2004, 09:24 PM

QUOTE (zapatista @ Apr 14 2004, 04:39 PM)
well, for those of you guys who say guys should have a say in weather a woman has an abortion or not, how about this... flip it around.. the girl gets pregnant and desides to keep the baby, but the guy wants her to have an abortion. should the guy have any say at all in that situation, or should he just be forced to face up to his responsibilitys?

My opinion: I think if one party wants to keep the kid, then that's the way it should be. If something as drastic as abortion is decided on, I think it should be mutual

: Holter Apr 15 2004, 12:24 AM

QUOTE (zapatista @ Apr 14 2004, 10:19 PM)
so your saying you think if the guy WANTS her to have an abortion he should have a say? What kind of say do you want? You can't make someone have an abortion and you can't make someone not have an abortion.

I think revolutionusa said it well, I mean if you (i dont mean you) get pregnant and one of you wants the baby, and there are no potential health risks involved in it for the mother, then its not fair to kill it by abortion. I just really feel strongly that you shouldnt be having sex if you arent ready to be pregnant.


Just to clarify this is all what I would hope would happen in the future, but for now I am definitely pro-choice.

: Banksy Apr 15 2004, 07:12 AM

QUOTE (revolutionusa @ Apr 15 2004, 05:24 AM)
QUOTE (zapatista @ Apr 14 2004, 04:39 PM)
well, for those of you guys who say guys should have a say in weather a woman has an abortion or not, how about this... flip it around.. the girl gets pregnant and desides to keep the baby, but the guy wants her to have an abortion. should the guy have any say at all in that situation, or should he just be forced to face up to his responsibilitys?

My opinion: I think if one party wants to keep the kid, then that's the way it should be. If something as drastic as abortion is decided on, I think it should be mutual

exactly revolutionusa, although i do think an abortion shouldnt be taken lightley

: Sara Apr 15 2004, 01:44 PM

so what happens afterwards? if we assume the mother had to keep the child because she couldnt abort coz the father wants the child, what happens then? to those two ppl and to the child? do u guys consider that? smile.gif

: Holter Apr 15 2004, 02:20 PM

Um they raise the child with joint custody, or maybe adoption?

: Sara Apr 15 2004, 03:24 PM

adoption? how do u mean? so he'd rather not have the abortion so the chld is alive, but gives him up for adoption? (its all hypothetical i realise)

: Holter Apr 15 2004, 03:30 PM

Well i mean maybe the guy is super pro-life and doesnt want to see it aborted because of his beliefs, but isnt fiancially stable and couldnt possibly take on a child. You know?

: Sara Apr 15 2004, 03:32 PM

::add another reason as to why men shouldnt be legally involved in the process of abortion::

unsure.gif

: Holter Apr 15 2004, 03:34 PM

huh.gif

: red@tm.net Apr 15 2004, 05:30 PM

i'm out of this. women think they are the only ones that are responsible for the kid, and can make the decitions. that is until its time for the father to start paying up the ass for child support. then of course their responsible for the child.

kinda Hypocritical if you ask me.

: rev79 Apr 15 2004, 08:19 PM

^I already said something to that effect, why it went unnoticed, I don't know

: rev79 Apr 15 2004, 09:08 PM

^I can imagine so...

: Holter Apr 15 2004, 11:18 PM

we have our own little NO MA'AM group going on here!!

We will reconvene this discussion tomorrow

























AT THE NUDIE BAR!!!! WOOHOO

: Sara Apr 16 2004, 12:21 AM

i wasnt bashing anyone...i was just saying blackhair.gif

yeah u go to that nudie bar, u real men u clap2.gif clap2.gif

mellow.gif

: Holter Apr 16 2004, 12:28 AM

LOL. hey there is nothing wrong with the nudie bar.

lots of good times there.

: Holter Apr 16 2004, 12:30 AM

although i feel dirty talking about it in the abortion thread. dont know why

: Sara Apr 16 2004, 01:41 PM

i would laugh, but it's serious. unsure.gif

: Sara Apr 16 2004, 09:08 PM

QUOTE
maybe thats where i got it from, but i talked to sarah at great lengths about this the other night, and i thought she started to see where the guys are coming from, but then she started up with the man bashing again. lol



out of curiousity, when was this?

: rev79 Apr 16 2004, 09:11 PM

^You don't remember?

: Sara Apr 16 2004, 09:18 PM

a 5mins discussion about how fathers shouldnt pay child support if they dont want the child to begin with? yeah i commented on that saying it's not fair to make the father pay if he cant afford to, and we should help such families who cant support themselves.


hardly lengthy and it didnt even cover abortion, and i still stand by my views, and all this man hating crap is so crap its getting old.

: rev79 Apr 16 2004, 09:22 PM

^That's true, everybody needs a little help sometimes. But, even as a man, I think child support is necessary for the deadbeats(myself excluded), unless they're voluntarily giving. Right?

: Sara Apr 16 2004, 09:28 PM

red? yep thought so. rolleyes.gif

anyway,yeah in my view the father should pay childsupport, the only problem is, if the father doesnt want the child and wanted the mother to abort but she didnt (coz it's fully her choice) should he still pay childsupport? that i think is what red was getting at.

in my view, he should pay, if he can afford to and if not, then the government should get involved. personally, i think a woman who keeps a child the father doesnt want is out of her mind, but that's just what i think.

also, the fact that some may view the current child benifit laws as unfair, it doesnt mean that we should make unfair abortion laws to even them out.

: red@tm.net Apr 16 2004, 09:52 PM

eh, people take shit too seriously on here, can't have fun at all. screw it i'm going back home.

: rev79 Apr 16 2004, 09:56 PM

^Its a debate..that's why its in the "hot seat" section!

: Banksy Apr 17 2004, 12:48 PM

^ exactly. weres his home? TM project?

: Holter Apr 18 2004, 01:44 AM

home is where the water flows like wine.

I still feel like I am right in this, but I dont think anyone is wrong. Its one of those types of debates.

: Banksy Apr 19 2004, 09:54 AM

QUOTE (BholteRage @ Apr 18 2004, 09:44 AM)
home is where the water flows like wine.

I still feel like I am right in this, but I dont think anyone is wrong. Its one of those types of debates.

i agree with you mostly on this topic.

: gbn Apr 27 2004, 12:56 PM

I feel that abortion should no be done but if the person is very young, been raped or it will kill the parent they are exceptions. people think that the baby in the womb cant feel anything but if you watch an ultra scan of a baby been killed during abortion you can see the baby scream its a silent scream but you can see the babies mouth open as if its screaming so there for I don’t think it should be done apart from the reasons that I have put forward

: herBeautyhisDefiance May 10 2004, 12:18 PM

I agree with so many of you, don't abort the baby when it's already so far into growing. I also would never be able to have an abortion, but I don't think it's for me to say what others do, and so I don't have hard feelings against those who choose to abort. But this really is just reiterating what so many have said before me.

: Jonny Rage May 14 2004, 04:01 PM

Abortion is wrong in all cases (unless in the VERY rare case that both mother and baby WILL die unless an abortion takes place) For young people if you act irresponsibly and get someone pregnany then it's your responsiblity a baby isn't just something you can dispose of if it's inconvenient. If you have a baby when your too poor, young etc there is always adoption. Abortion because of rape is extremely rare but if a women is made pregnant due to rape why punish the baby? That child it could still grow up and live a life full of love and happiness. Some people say it's ok to kill a baby very early on but not a baby of more than a few weeks, but were do you draw the line? Is there a point when one second it's a clump of tissue the next it's a human being? I believe that as soon as the gametes join there is the potential for human life and that should not be stopped. I have tried to argue my point carefully without resoughting to talking about the disgusting methods of abortion that are used. PLEASE DO NOT ABORT

: Casbah May 14 2004, 05:25 PM

heres what i have to say to you...

what the fuck do you care if my wife or any woman has an abortion? thats none of your damn business! zmat2.gif

: Fanatical Radical May 17 2004, 01:35 AM

well if you make it illegal for abortions to take place then you have already crossed a line that could get very dirty.

should a mother who is a drug addict or a drunk be charged with murder if she has a miscarriage? and could smoking, drinking, or even not intaking a healthy diet (like one with large amounts of caffeine) be seen as abuse?

I'm not saying i support abortion, i'm just bringing to light that the idea of disallowing abortions on the ground that its murder really opens up a lot to debate.

: Holter May 17 2004, 10:47 AM

I dont think anyone "supports abortion" people just differ on supporting a woman's choice to. I debate that its the mans choice too.

: red@tm.net May 17 2004, 11:02 AM

why dear god why, did this thread have to come back

: Sara May 17 2004, 04:59 PM

i dont know how brought this topic back up, but anyway.


pro-choice just means that those who want to keep the baby can, and those who don't want to keep the baby don't have to. it's not about what person believes, there are many different belief systems out there, and the law, ideally should work with that. someone said they believe the fetus is alive, good for you. i dont, and i dont have to keep a fetus because someone thinks it's murder to abort. if a lady chooses to keep the fetus because of a belief it's a child, i can't go there and say hey, abort, it's a fetus. you cannot force your belief system on anyone (this is not directed at anyone in particular, i'm just saying generally).


holter man, your a really cool person and all, and i hope you never have to disagree with your girlfriend on this, because it's a huge problem, thinking you should have a legal right in matters of abortion.

: red@tm.net May 17 2004, 05:29 PM

can this thread go away now? this thread and the cinco de mayo thread have done more then enough damage.

: Metzli May 17 2004, 05:36 PM

I know that this is a really HOT issue. but anyways.... An old friend of mine in HS used to be very promiscious. She told me about two incidents where an Abortion was her "only" Choice. She had a one-night stand with some guy.. and then she got pregnant. She had an abortion. and that was the end of that. Then, she got with some guy. She was 16 at the time.. and then she got pregnant. she didn't tell him that she was pregnant.. anyways.. she got another abortion and no one knew. So after having TWO abortions.. It would be Very dangerous for her to get another one. so I found out that she had a baby. I guess she couldn't get outta this one. unsure.gif If a woman is going to have irresponsible unprotected sex, then she should be ready for the consequences and abortion should not be an option that will make the problem go away.. Obviously there is still a problem if Abortion is just an irresponsible way out of the situation. blackhair.gif Women and Girls should really be more careful with themselves and choose to be a little more responsible.

: Metzli May 17 2004, 05:39 PM

QUOTE (red@tm.net @ May 17 2004, 06:29 PM)
can this thread go away now? this thread and the cinco de mayo thread have done more then enough damage.

mad.gif This keeps coming up because it's obviously a PROBLEM!! rolleyes.gif Sorry if people are willing to ACCEPT that this is a HUGE problem in society! And WTF? Damage?? Cause it's realized that there's a Problem?? The Cinco De Mayo thread Obviously Shone the light on a lot of issues that ppl usually try to avoid. Damn blackhair.gif

: red@tm.net May 17 2004, 05:46 PM

see what i mean.

: Sara May 17 2004, 06:00 PM

i fail to see why this thread needs to go away red? i think it's an important topic, and we're all being very respectful. i have so much respect for everyone who posted here...including the ones i disagreed with, i got annoyed...but it doesnt mean i dont respect you guys.

i'm not sure what went down with el cinco de mayo thread, but from my understanding, people were arguing against the misconceptions and the negative representation of mexicans and of that day? and depoliticising such day? i'm not sure what's wrong with that? but then i didnt not directly keep up with the topic...so i don't know what went wrong there.

rage-babe, i fully agree, we all need to be responsible and abortion is not a method of birth control. however, cases of irresponsible women should not be looked at as the general pattern, and abortion as a right in no way should be taken away from women.

: Metzli May 17 2004, 06:08 PM

QUOTE (Sarah @ May 17 2004, 07:00 PM)
and abortion as a right in no way should be taken away from women.

smile.gif I completely agree.

: Manifest May 17 2004, 06:38 PM

QUOTE (Rage-Babe @ May 17 2004, 06:39 PM)
QUOTE (red@tm.net @ May 17 2004, 06:29 PM)
can this thread go away now?  this thread and the cinco de mayo thread have done more then enough damage.

mad.gif This keeps coming up because it's obviously a PROBLEM!! rolleyes.gif Sorry if people are willing to ACCEPT that this is a HUGE problem in society! And WTF? Damage?? Cause it's realized that there's a Problem?? The Cinco De Mayo thread Obviously Shone the light on a lot of issues that ppl usually try to avoid. Damn blackhair.gif

Guys i think we should stop discussing this because people's feelings are getting hurt screw trying to solve societies problems rolleyes.gif

: Jonny Rage May 22 2004, 04:44 AM

QUOTE
abortion as a right in no way should be taken away from women.


What about the baby's rite to live?

: You are not a slave. May 22 2004, 04:57 AM

QUOTE (Jonny Rage @ May 22 2004, 12:44 PM)
QUOTE
abortion as a right in no way should be taken away from women.


What about the baby's rite to live?

Bingo.

So I guess whether it's life matters or not is judged my time. so say, you kill it when the fetus is 7 m/o, only 2 more months and it would of been 'alive'... shame isn't it.


In my view the only time a child should be aborted is if it was conceived through rape.

: yabasta79 May 22 2004, 02:37 PM

blackhair.gif I believe an abortion is a horrible procedure no matter what the circumstances. I know that many people say, well if you couldn't deal with the consequences then you should not have spread your legs or something like that. A baby is not a punishment, he/she should not be used to remind you of that time you had unprotected sex.
If a women is so stupid that she did not know how to use birth control, please let her do us all a favor and do not reproduce more stupid people like herself. An abortion is not an easy way out, it's a hard choice a woman must make, most often on her own. Those who refuse to abort do so because of family pressure, religious beliefs and what not, but it is that woman who will struggle most of her life to bring up her child, probably without a father, fight to keep her kid from being killed in the street, and will most likely continue the cycle of poverty.
Men don't have to deal with it as directly because they will sleep with whomever they wish and may never know how many women he impregnated. If this were my world, you would have to take an extensive exam to see if you can become a parent. But noooo, any idiot is allowed to make babies and as many as they want!

: Sara May 22 2004, 11:09 PM

a fetus is a fetus, regardless of how it became one...now if we choose to believe he's a living thing, then aborting a child of rape is just as bad and murderous as aborting a child of two consenting adults. in my view, it's weird to say it's ok to "kill" him in cases of rape but not in other cases.

QUOTE
If a women is so stupid that she did not know how to use birth control, please let her do us all a favor and do not reproduce more stupid people like herself. An abortion is not an easy way out, it's a hard choice a woman must make, most often on her own. Those who refuse to abort do so because of family pressure, religious beliefs and what not, but it is that woman who will struggle most of her life to bring up her child, probably without a father, fight to keep her kid from being killed in the street, and will most likely continue the cycle of poverty.


i agree with most of what u said, except that part bout stupid woman and stupid kid. it's alot more complex than forgetting to take the pills, and just because a woman is "Stupid" doesnt mean her kids are automatically gonna be stupid. wink.gif


i think most of the time, abortion is difficult coz how it's looked at, with the belief that the fetus is a living thing.

: zdlr2 May 31 2004, 08:10 AM

abortion is a good thing

: Banksy May 31 2004, 08:27 AM

QUOTE (zdlr2 @ May 31 2004, 04:10 PM)
abortion is a good thing

Explain? Abortion is a horrible thing for everyone that is concerned including the baby. There may be circumstances that result in pregmancy that the woman had no control over like rape etc and under these circumstances abortion can be an option if the mother doesn't want the child but adoption is also an option, there are many people out there who want a child but can't have one and there waiting on an adoption list so they can have a baby.

If the woman or the man isn't prepared to protect themselves during sex when they know the risk a fetus should not be aborted over it. Sex is a responsability that holds conceqences. The choices should be concidered before not after a woman becomes pregmant. An abortion which is effectily killing a potential human being should not take place because a couple are irresponsable and careless.

: rev79 May 31 2004, 10:16 AM

QUOTE (zdlr2 @ May 31 2004, 11:10 AM)
abortion is a good thing

No, abortion is a terrible thing, even if you agree with it. Life is beautiful..

: Banksy May 31 2004, 12:30 PM

QUOTE (rev79 @ May 31 2004, 06:16 PM)
QUOTE (zdlr2 @ May 31 2004, 11:10 AM)
abortion is a good thing

No, abortion is a terrible thing, even if you agree with it. Life is beautiful..

Exactly.

: Sara May 31 2004, 03:31 PM

if a lady wants to give up the child for adoption then by all means, but aborting the fetus is just as valid, like u said it's another option. and this rape argument really is quite amusing.

as for the adoption lists, it is of concern to me, coz there r so many children at the moment living off the state, and im sure there r nice fostercare placses there, but really kids there have a higher chance of being abused. if ppl want to adopt, start with the kids that are already there, not with the potential kids that are yet to come... unsure.gif

it's not up to u to be everyone's moral guidance. u believe it's a living thing, others may not. falling accidently pregnant is alot more complicated than getting careless with the pill. i've heard of cases where women fell pregnant while on the pill, it happens, it's rare but it happens. nothing gives 100% protection. sex is not just about reproducing, not for us.

if you guys feel very strongly bout this, then maybe all of you shouldnt be having sex till ur sure u want to be mothers.

: elisium May 31 2004, 03:40 PM

yea i agree fully

: Fanatical Radical Jun 1 2004, 12:21 AM

Can those opposed to abortion please tell me how they feel about a mother smoking/drinking/abusing drugs while pregnant?

If you believe that all life is sacred and should always be protected then do not the things listed above risk the lives of the innocents? should a mother be allowed to poison her child indirectly while pregnant?

plz respond because i really find it hipocritical to be pro-life yet allow these acts to occur.

[edit = spelling]

: Banksy Jun 1 2004, 04:58 AM

QUOTE (Fanatical Radical @ Jun 1 2004, 08:21 AM)
If you believe that all life is sacred

Doesn't everyone?

: Banksy Jun 1 2004, 05:08 AM

I don't think a woman shouldn't smoke, drink do drugs are anything damageing to the childs health. Like abortion though its down to what the woman wants to do. I wouldn't of thoguht that a mother who carers about the child she is carrying would want to harm it and try to avoid doing so. I don't agree with it but like sarah said these are just my morals, there not what other people believe so theres nothing i can do about it. All i can have is an opinion on the argument i can't take a way a right the goverment has rightfully or maybe not rightfully given to women.

I don't know if you have red nose day in america but what it is, is you buy and wear a silly red nose and the idea is the money spent on buying these red noses goes to various charities. Its quite a big thing here, nation wide. Ive brought it up because I don't join in with it, the reason for that is because something like 5% of the monet raised goes to some sort of pro abortion clinic thing. It seems a shame I can't help other people and other charities without going against my own morals and donate towards a pro abortion charity

: defiance Jun 2 2004, 04:45 PM

I don't know what to think about that. Maybe there should be restrictions to it. It's hard though to completely regulate it, since they can easily do it at home. It's like the law against under-age drinking. It doesn't really work that effectively, except in public scenes. But I am opposed to abortion. I really don't even see what the big deal is about it, since there are many ways singly or collectively to avoid pregnancy in the first place. Why are we so worried about making it posible to kill our unborn babies, and not instead focusing on educating people about, and making available, effective birth control. All life is sacred, and how any liberal can deny that is very confusing to me. I especially am sickened by partial birth abortions, which take place at a stage when the baby is almost fully developed, and very often they are born a that same stage. We might as well make it legal to mill our children after they're born. Most people would be appalled by that, yet many of them have no problem with partial births.

: ImperialAerosolKid Jun 2 2004, 06:45 PM

QUOTE (defiance @ Jun 3 2004, 12:45 AM)
All life is sacred, and how any liberal can deny that is very confusing to me.

having some personal experience with this issue I have to agree.


I think abortion as birth control is the least mature social norm since the food fight....

: Sara Jun 3 2004, 01:06 AM

i would like to emphasis that not all women use abortion as a means of birth control, only irresponsible ones do, and a law that takes away women's right to abort is not the answer. dont punish all for the mistake of few.

as for the partial birth abortion, my understading is that it's done normally when carrying the baby is of danger to the mother? because normally ppl that wanna abort will abort at a much earlier stage. personally if i choose to abort i will have an abortion in the early stages. i mean, the third trimester, would know by that point that i do want to keep it, unless of course it's of danger to my life, then abortion is my only option. I still think that such abortions should not be banned, because ppl will always find a way to do it (i think its a little too late, i think partial-birth abortion has been banned in the US?).

: Banksy Jun 3 2004, 05:53 AM

QUOTE (defiance @ Jun 3 2004, 12:45 AM)
Most people would be appalled by that, yet many of them have no problem with partial births.

Confusing isn't it. I think if most people knew what happens in an abortion they would be appalled also.

: defiance Jun 3 2004, 06:17 AM

QUOTE (Sarah)
i think its a little too late, i think partial-birth abortion has been banned in the US?


I'm not sure if it's state or nation wide, but a judge (Ibelieve supreme court, but again, I forget if it'd nation or state wide) just ruled a few days ago that the ban is unconstitutional, as it "infringes on a womans right to choose". Here's what I think. I think abortion should illegal unless the woman is seriously in danger, and maybe they could have it within like the first week or two, for women who have been raped or soething, and don't want to have it. Other than that, I view abortion as sick and unjust.

QUOTE
i would like to emphasis that not all women use abortion as a means of birth control, only irresponsible ones do, and a law that takes away women's right to abort is not the answer. dont punish all for the mistake of few.


I would hope that this is true, but I don't see how it makes much difference. Besides, like I said, if you don't want to have a baby, then use some sort of birth control. If you couldn't bother to do that, or you did want one before but changed your mind, than too bad, you shouldn't have the right to kill the baby. And then alot of people love to say "the baby's not really alive, it doesn't feel anything", and yet that has no backing at all. It has a brain and nerve system, so I'm sure it can feel, it is alive, so that's just strait out lies (to yourself more than anyone else, cause you don't want to believe thatyou are killing a living human). And of course, there are those people who say that "it's not really human, even if it is alive". Dataika posted awhile ago on here (I couldn't respond cause I was gone), and said something to the effect of, "it's really ironic when these people complain about abortion killing innocent lives, and then go eat a steak." But guess what, I seriously doubt that anyone here would eat meat that has aborted fetuses in it, evn if it was completely healthy (and aside from that, many people who are anti-abortion are vegetarian (and ironically, some who are pro-abortion are vegetarian, because they think it's the "womans right")).

: rev79 Jun 3 2004, 09:53 AM

QUOTE (rev79 @ Nov 24 2003, 03:09 PM)

http://www.drtiller.com

I just live a few blocks from this guy's practice..

http://www.feminist.org/other/wichita/

An old post of mine here..

: ImperialAerosolKid Jun 3 2004, 08:22 PM

QUOTE (Sarah @ Jun 3 2004, 09:06 AM)
i would like to emphasis that not all women use abortion as a means of birth control, only irresponsible ones do, and a law that takes away women's right to abort is not the answer. dont punish all for the mistake of few.

as for the partial birth abortion, my understading is that it's done normally when carrying the baby is of danger to the mother? because normally ppl that wanna abort will abort at a much earlier stage. personally if i choose to abort i will have an abortion in the early stages. i mean, the third trimester, would know by that point that i do want to keep it, unless of course it's of danger to my life, then abortion is my only option. I still think that such abortions should not be banned, because ppl will always find a way to do it (i think its a little too late, i think partial-birth abortion has been banned in the US?).

i AM pro-choice


but is it so sexist to judge a system in which abortion clinics are across from hospitals?? what if you park in the wrong place??

and is it wrong to judge a system that predicates abortion as an easier option than raising a child???

i've seen successful people abort fetuses so they can continue their freedoms.

and...

what about Scott Petersen??

he is the main target of feminists who claim he committed a double murder...

so only some hippie doctor with bad berks can kill kids???

: Sara Jun 3 2004, 08:38 PM

see that is a problem, in ur view it's wrong to murder a baby, right? does it become less wrong to abort when the baby is a product of rape or incest rape? does the baby feel less pain, or is he less human just because of the way the sperm found the egg? in my view, those that are pro-life should be pro-life unconditionally, regardless of the circumstances, because a life is a life regardless of the context.

as for the birth control, sometimes these things dont work...it is rare, but it happens, condoms may break and the pills...well in some cases they may not work, and fertilisation may occur, in which case i dont see why I have to have a child that I dont want to have because the condom broke and someone else thinks the fetus is alive.

u were saying there's no evidence to back up the fact that a fetus is not alive, well evidence of it being alive is contraversial too, and at what stage is the fetus alive, and can he live without support from the mother in terms of nuetrients? is the fetus alive really or is it/he/she not? it's subjected to our definition of what's alive and what's not...

Example, there was an argument going on a while ago bout religion and evolution and all that, and each side presented strong arguments and both can be true, difference is, we make a choice when we pick what we want to believe in, and this matter here is no different. each side will bring their evidence forward and ppl will read up and depending on how we were brought up and how we view women's rights and life and death and all of that, and it's not wrong at all, each belief system is valid. what is wrong however, is one one tries to shove their beliefs down ppl's throats, the law gives the right to abort, it doesn't ORDER ppl to abort, and we can make the choice.

i am pro-choice, alive or not alive, lies or truths, i dont feel guitly bout having one, and if i want to abort i will. for those who believe it's sick and unjust, dont have one. the truth is, there's no single truth, we all have different views on the fetus, alive, not alive, growing, a lovely creature in me, or a parasite feeding off me, the truth is, all these are points of view that must be taken into consideration when constructing laws. the law doesn't say u must abort, the law says a woman has the right to abort. and i hope it stays this way. i think the US has a long wya to go in terms of women liberation movement, which is ironic...being the land of the free and all that jazz.


in any event, this is getting redundant, i respect every point of view presented, even as i disagree with most, and again, if you don't want to have an abortion, please feel free to keep the child and raise them and i hope you grow old to see them happy and all that smile.gif

: defiance Jun 6 2004, 07:36 PM

I only said that rape victiims should be able to abort in like the first week or two, so as to avoid as much as possible killing anything more than a cluster of cells, and at the same time enabling women the ability to avoid having a child that is a victim of rape.

As for the stuff about different opinions, some people think that outright murder of a fully grown person is okay. Does that mean they should have the right to kill people? It's not the same as religion and evolution, because this is an issue of life and death for a human being. This stuff about truth being relative is really strange to me, and it doesn't really make sense. What is true is true, we are simply debating what is really true, and what is false. For instance, I doubt you would consider it valid to say that a fetus doesn't exist at all. If you would, then I don't see why you even bother debating with anyone, since nothing really matters anyway.

About birth control, if something wrong happens, too bad. It's not worth a human life just because poor Sarah's pill/shot/condom didn't work right. Say you couldn't afford an abortion, would you just kill the baby once it was born? What's the difference? Who cares if it's dependent, so is the born child. Does that make it okay to kill it?

: Sara Jun 6 2004, 08:24 PM

QUOTE (defiance @ Jun 7 2004, 03:36 PM)
It's not worth a human life just because poor Sarah's pill/shot/condom didn't work right.

dont address me like that.

if you're ok with a woman having an abortion in the early stages of preganancy when it's conceived of rape, then really, you should also be ok with a woman having an abortion in the early stages of pregnancy because she simply does not want to keep the fetus. i dont understand why the context here should matter. if you view it as a matter of "life" then a life of child of rape is just as important as life of that who is born from two consenting adults.

i cannot compare aborting a fetus to killing a person who's "fully grown" or whatever, coz all of us agree that a person living among us is alive, as opposed to with the fetus, where we have different opinions on it being living or not.

that is a major difference. you say "life and death for a human being", because you believe the fetus is a living human being, while i don't. there are evidence pro and against. what is true is relevent and depends on your upbringing, presumably you're religious? (not that there anything wrong with that at all, but i'm saying that is where things differ)

of course a fetus exist..........we're not discussing vacuum... unsure.gif

the difference between killing a newborn and aborting a fetus, is that i dont believe a fetus is a living thing will it's out of the uterus.

if you don't want to have an abortion, don't. smile.gif

agree to disagree,done.

: defiance Jun 6 2004, 08:58 PM

It's too easy to just say "done", and expect no response. Show some nerve.

I don't see how my being religious has anything to do with my views on abortion. Why do people always assume that my religion is the basis of all my political beliefs? If I was an atheist I would still be against abortion. And I don't accept everything from my background. My beliefs are shaped by my own research and my own conscience.

People's acceptence of fetuses as humans makes no difference to me. Some people believe that Jews are inferior, or that black people are inferior, but does that mean that their equality is only relative? Some people believe women are inferior, but does that mean that their equality is only relative? I doubt that you would think so. Likewise, I don't believe that unborn babies being human is only relative, I believe it is an important issue.

Maybe women should be able to abort in the first two weeks. The main reason I think of that timing though is, like I said, as a compromise. I don't know the exact timing on all of this. When does the baby become a fetus and not just an embryo? It doesn't take very long does it? That two weeks timing's just off the top of my head.

: Nino Jun 7 2004, 12:37 PM

I think its personal choice. In my opinion i could never accept someone having a abortion because i would see it as killing a human with the potential to do great things. Even so i feel people should have the freedom to control there own bodies and what happens inside there bodies. I couldnt imagine what it would be like to have a living thing inside me and i can imagine some people wanting to get rid of the baby or embreyo or whatever people are calling it. If people want to have an abortion then they have the right to do it in my eyes because in realality everyone has the freedom of choice and thought. This gets complicated because i believe every living thing should be given the chance to live, also i have no religious beliefs before anything like that comes up. I agree with most arguements here and in my opinion its all down to the individual and there feelings and thought on the matter.

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