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> What Is Beautiful?, Beyonces look. A comment n Rolling Stone
Casbah
post Feb 20 2004, 08:36 PM
Post #31


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im almost embarassed to say shes got a great voice since im not too into most pop music


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Vìcmælon
post Feb 21 2004, 05:39 AM
Post #32


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Good point cosmic.

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Moremi
post Feb 21 2004, 06:04 AM
Post #33


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^ How so?

Why do I feel like people are missing the point? This is not about whether or not Beyonce is beautiful. She obviously is. And it's not about what a few rappers put in their videos or songs. Do you guys realize that blacks have been demonized and compared to animals in the media for years. The closer you were to looking white the better off you were. Our standard of beauty has been greatly influenced by what whites forced upon us. Rather than dealing with the cause, you're dealing with the effect.

Watch the movie Bamboozled by Spike Lee. It goes into some of these issues. And the Public Enemy song "Burn Hollywood Burn", that Zack helped remake for the movie, also very good.

EDIT: There are few books on the RATM reading list that go into these issues also.

This post has been edited by Moremi: Feb 21 2004, 09:13 AM


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Underground
post Feb 21 2004, 09:04 AM
Post #34


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QUOTE (Moremi @ Feb 20 2004, 11:44 PM)
QUOTE (Underground @ Feb 20 2004, 04:56 PM)
QUOTE
this is an interesting topic. I've heard countless R&B songs that refer to thier women, real or not, as "caramel", "creamy" or other description that entails a "light" complexion(even visually in videos). Hardly ever is the description of a "dark" skin used. So, is this also an issue within the black culture too?

but when do white guys sing about "white" skinned women???

White guys do sing about white women and there's nothing wrong with that. They might not come out and say white but they use words like "blue eyes", "porcelain skin", "golden hair", which brings to mind images of a white woman. And the women in their videos usually fit that description too.

it is black women in videos by black guys also


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If you listen carefully now you will hear.
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Many more will have to cry - don't ask me why.

Bob Marley
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Moremi
post Feb 21 2004, 09:16 AM
Post #35


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QUOTE (Underground @ Feb 21 2004, 01:04 PM)
QUOTE (Moremi @ Feb 20 2004, 11:44 PM)
QUOTE (Underground @ Feb 20 2004, 04:56 PM)
QUOTE
this is an interesting topic. I've heard countless R&B songs that refer to thier women, real or not, as "caramel", "creamy" or other description that entails a "light" complexion(even visually in videos). Hardly ever is the description of a "dark" skin used. So, is this also an issue within the black culture too?

but when do white guys sing about "white" skinned women???

White guys do sing about white women and there's nothing wrong with that. They might not come out and say white but they use words like "blue eyes", "porcelain skin", "golden hair", which brings to mind images of a white woman. And the women in their videos usually fit that description too.

it is black women in videos by black guys also

Yeah, did anyone say they didn't? What are you getting at? unsure.gif


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Underground
post Feb 21 2004, 09:23 AM
Post #36


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QUOTE (Moremi @ Feb 21 2004, 05:16 PM)
QUOTE (Underground @ Feb 21 2004, 01:04 PM)
QUOTE (Moremi @ Feb 20 2004, 11:44 PM)
QUOTE (Underground @ Feb 20 2004, 04:56 PM)
QUOTE
this is an interesting topic. I've heard countless R&B songs that refer to thier women, real or not, as "caramel", "creamy" or other description that entails a "light" complexion(even visually in videos). Hardly ever is the description of a "dark" skin used. So, is this also an issue within the black culture too?

but when do white guys sing about "white" skinned women???

White guys do sing about white women and there's nothing wrong with that. They might not come out and say white but they use words like "blue eyes", "porcelain skin", "golden hair", which brings to mind images of a white woman. And the women in their videos usually fit that description too.

it is black women in videos by black guys also

Yeah, did anyone say they didn't? What are you getting at? unsure.gif

you pointed out that white guys have white women in their videos, so that doesn't prove anything given that black guys have black women in theirs


--------------------
There's a natural mystic blowing through the air;
If you listen carefully now you will hear.
It could be the first trumpet, might as well be the last:
Many more will have to die,
Many more will have to cry - don't ask me why.

Bob Marley
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Moremi
post Feb 21 2004, 09:29 AM
Post #37


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QUOTE (Underground @ Feb 21 2004, 01:23 PM)
you pointed out that white guys have white women in their videos, so that doesn't prove anything given that black guys have black women in theirs

No, you asked "when do white guys sing about white women?"...as if somehow they don't. So I listed some examples for you, to show you they do. What I don't get is, what does any of this have to with this discussion? What is your point?


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Underground
post Feb 21 2004, 09:34 AM
Post #38


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QUOTE (Moremi @ Feb 21 2004, 05:29 PM)
QUOTE (Underground @ Feb 21 2004, 01:23 PM)
you pointed out that white guys have white women in their videos, so that doesn't prove anything given that black guys have black women in theirs

No, you asked "when do white guys sing about white women?"...as if somehow they don't. So I listed some examples for you, to show you they do. What I don't get is, what does any of this have to with this discussion? What is your point?

it has everything to do with it, the previous discusssion was how black guys don't sing about black women. so i asked the question if white guys do.

it is a perfectly logical and important thing to ask, given the prior discussion


--------------------
There's a natural mystic blowing through the air;
If you listen carefully now you will hear.
It could be the first trumpet, might as well be the last:
Many more will have to die,
Many more will have to cry - don't ask me why.

Bob Marley
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Moremi
post Feb 21 2004, 09:43 AM
Post #39


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QUOTE (Underground @ Feb 21 2004, 01:34 PM)
QUOTE (Moremi @ Feb 21 2004, 05:29 PM)
QUOTE (Underground @ Feb 21 2004, 01:23 PM)
you pointed out that white guys have white women in their videos, so that doesn't prove anything given that black guys have black women in theirs

No, you asked "when do white guys sing about white women?"...as if somehow they don't. So I listed some examples for you, to show you they do. What I don't get is, what does any of this have to with this discussion? What is your point?

it has everything to do with it, the previous discusssion was how black guys don't sing about black women. so i asked the question if white guys do.

it is a perfectly logical and important thing to ask, given the prior discussion

That's not the point cosmic was making. Or at least that was not my understanding of his post. Cosmic was saying that many of the women that are spoken of in rap music or shown in videos are light skinned black women. He was pointing out, that the problem of the media mostly recognizing light skinned black women also exists in the black communitiy. Which is what the writer of that article was getting at - that white people cannot appreciate dark skinned women. He wasn't saying that black men don't sing about black women. I agree with cosmics point but I think it's the effect of living in a society where the standard of beauty is completely opposite of what you see in the mirror.

This post has been edited by Moremi: Feb 21 2004, 02:23 PM


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Underground
post Feb 21 2004, 09:57 AM
Post #40


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QUOTE (Moremi @ Feb 21 2004, 05:43 PM)
QUOTE (Underground @ Feb 21 2004, 01:34 PM)
QUOTE (Moremi @ Feb 21 2004, 05:29 PM)
QUOTE (Underground @ Feb 21 2004, 01:23 PM)
you pointed out that white guys have white women in their videos, so that doesn't prove anything given that black guys have black women in theirs

No, you asked "when do white guys sing about white women?"...as if somehow they don't. So I listed some examples for you, to show you they do. What I don't get is, what does any of this have to with this discussion? What is your point?

it has everything to do with it, the previous discusssion was how black guys don't sing about black women. so i asked the question if white guys do.

it is a perfectly logical and important thing to ask, given the prior discussion

That's not the point cosmic was making. Or at least that was not my understanding of his post. Cosmic was saying that many of the women that are spoken of in rap music or shown in videos are light skinned black women. He was pointing out, that the problem of the media mostly recognizing light skinned black women also exists in the black communitiy. Which is what the writer of that article was getting at - that white people cannot appreciate dark skinned women. He wasn't saying that black men don't sing about black women. I agree with cosmics point but as I already said, there are reasons for that which go back to what the author of that article was saying.

but clearly the important issue to simultaneously address is whether white guys only show or describe particularly white women.

otherwise it is pointless


--------------------
There's a natural mystic blowing through the air;
If you listen carefully now you will hear.
It could be the first trumpet, might as well be the last:
Many more will have to die,
Many more will have to cry - don't ask me why.

Bob Marley
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Moremi
post Feb 21 2004, 10:10 AM
Post #41


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QUOTE (Underground @ Feb 21 2004, 01:57 PM)
but clearly the important issue to simultaneously address is whether white guys only show or describe particularly white women.

otherwise it is pointless

I edited my last post during your reply but anyway...

I think that white women of all shades, hair type and eye color are well represented in media. But black women who are embraced by the mainstream and viewed as beautiful usually look more European. That's the issue.


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Moremi
post Feb 21 2004, 03:36 PM
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Let me try to explain it another way. This might not be the perfect analogy but I'll try. Take for example how in recent years there have been many organizations and doctors that complained about the problems with self image that are created in young girls through media. The media has a very strong influence on what we believe and think of as beauty. Many girls look to the size 2 super models as role models and believe that's what all men want them to look like. As a result very many women and young girls have eating disorders which has lead several groups to ask for more diversity in the media. This way girls can develop a healthier self image and stop ruining their bodies. What you have to understand is, it's not about being accepted or validated by another group. It's about diversity and reflecting what this world really looks like and not what a few people want it to look like. Through the media, what's mostly being reflected are the interests of powerful white men. In the past, and even now, the media has been used to elevate a European standard of beauty. It's not always as blatant as it used to be but it's still there. Sometimes, it's so obviously deliberate and other times I think people are acting out what they have been taught for so long. But the fact that what we see in the media and what passes as beautiful in this society, doesn't stray very far from European, says a lot about how little we've come in terms of being able to appreciate our differences. Anyway, I think I'm done with this discussion. I feel like I'm speaking another language. Thanks for your feedback. smile.gif


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zapatista
post Feb 21 2004, 05:15 PM
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I think that's a great analogy... and one most people can relate to. Black women have been pressured to fit this european standard of beauty... more then most. but that even reaches to other minoritys to.. that's why we dye our hair and bla bla bla... meh.. screw that.. I'm not doing that anymore... great topic Moremi


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Sara
post Feb 22 2004, 01:23 AM
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that's exactly what it is. it's a mechanism of control. the dominant culture in the US, is the anglo-american, and everyone else is a minority, and representing the white on TV more than any other ethinicity reflects that who is in power is the white, they r superiour, they r beautiful and for us to be beautiful we gotta look like them. "us" and "them" are very distinguished.

beyonce is presented as a "hip hop princess" even thu she sings pop really...her music is described as hip hop, coz she's black, but she's she is being presented to us as a white girl...her hair is so blonde, and straight, even when it's curly it looks anglo-american, her skin like u said is light...and this is the way, she is "safe" to be put on TV extensively coz she doesnt threaten the american ideas of beauty. neither does noami campbell for that matter, not with her blue eyes and straight hair. they r safe coz they don't look very black. same goes for asians on TV, they really dont look very "asian" some of them look like they come from mixed ethnic backgrounds. same goes for J Lo.

There is nothing wrong with that, the only problem is, most of the time, this is all we see. it's a problem when people start buying into that crap, that's dangerous, we need to understand our differences and appreciate it, but that cant happen with the way things are today, the dominant culture would be very threatened by this. the media today reflects cultural imperialism and um a lot of hemoginizing u know, trying to blend us all in, under one culture and one value system. there can be no change when we still have the lovely pop stars flooding the TV screens, coz making more money is more important than preserving one's culture.

a while ago, some guy posted here accusing beyonce of trying to be white and he got trashed for it...come to think of it, i kinda agree. can she not see that she's being marketed as a brown "white girl"? i always knew she was being presented as white, it only just hit me, that she could've just said No.

i am so sorry if i repeated material and i am sorry for rambling...i just had to share my view on this smile.gif


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Moremi
post Feb 22 2004, 10:05 AM
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Thank you for your responses zap and Sarah clap2.gif

Even with her blonde hair in Destiny's Child or in the Hip Hopera - Carmen, that she did with Mos Def, Beyonce still came off to me as a black girl who identified with her people. But there's no doubt that her cross over success is in large part due to her look. Is she presenting herself that way because she's trying to be white or is she doing it because she knows that's what sells? It's not always true that black women who straighten or dye their hair are trying to be white. There are so many black women who are proud of their race and heritage who straighten their hair for a number of reasons that have nothing to do with wanting to be white. For example, Betty Shabazz, the wife of Malcolm X, straightened her hair. There's also many black women who sport natural hair do's like dread locks or fros who dye their hair. The way you wear your hair is not always a reflection of how you feel about your culture. While I don't agree with the blonde hair or weaves, I try to look at a person's situation for what it is. I don't think Beyonce wants to be white but I do think she's doing it because it helps her appeal to a larger audience. As you said, it's about making money. I think it's sad and irresponsible that so many entertainers play into this. I know we all have to make a living and the profession they have chosen for themselves is not very open minded or accepting of people who don't look European. But I think people of color are going to have to be the ones to change this. If we can't be ourselves, even if it means we might sell less records, no one is ever going to accept us for what we are.

I didn't know Naomi Campbell wore blue contacts! That's a damn shame ermm.gif


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