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> Animal Rights, your thoughts
zapatista
post Dec 11 2003, 04:13 PM
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QUOTE (ZDLRfan @ Dec 11 2003, 06:33 PM)
Do you think that's the result of being a vegetarian or a poorly balanced diet? I have an uncle that's been a vegan for over a decade...he hasn't had any problems yet dunno.gif

I think your raising a good point ZDLRfan... I know a couple of people that went Veggie and had problems.. and then they went back... I don't think they relise what it takes.. you can't just eat green leafy veggies.. you have to eat ALOT of green leafy veggies and lots of other stuff to.. a wide variety of things... I have one friend who went Vegan.. hasn't had any problems at all.. but he eats ALL THE TIME! hahaha.. to get all that he needs.. so, yea.. it's a matter of a really well balanced diet.. I'm not saying that every one who has going veggie/vegan and has problems is not eatting a well blanced diet.. but it's something you really have to look at.. if your having problems.. diet first.. grin.gif


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zapatista
post Dec 11 2003, 04:18 PM
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QUOTE (ZDLRfan @ Dec 11 2003, 02:35 PM)
QUOTE (rage baby @ Dec 10 2003, 07:24 PM)
whats with the animosity towards vegetarians... unsure.gif

at least we're trying to do something by refusing to eat meat

...ya and i guess human nature is to put some chicken in a tiny cage where it can move around, inject them with fertilizer so they can produce more eggs and cut off their beaks birgits_scratch.gif

well yay to human nature!  cheers.gif

and to this comment... i don't have any problems with veggie/vegans.. i just don't want to be eatting a chicken sandwich and someone start preaching to me... i mean.. people don't like people to push religion or anything else on them.. samething.. it's a lifestyle choice.. also.. I don't think anyone is saying mistreating animals the way you stated above is human behavor.. that's NOT human behavior.. that's just plain SICK! but eatting meat is human nature.. and has been for hundreds of thousands of years.


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Moremi
post Dec 11 2003, 04:47 PM
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QUOTE (zapatista @ Dec 11 2003, 08:13 PM)
QUOTE (ZDLRfan @ Dec 11 2003, 06:33 PM)
Do you think that's the result of being a vegetarian or a poorly balanced diet? I have an uncle that's been a vegan for over a decade...he hasn't had any problems yet dunno.gif

I think your raising a good point ZDLRfan... I know a couple of people that went Veggie and had problems.. and then they went back... I don't think they relise what it takes.. you can't just eat green leafy veggies.. you have to eat ALOT of green leafy veggies and lots of other stuff to.. a wide variety of things... I have one friend who went Vegan.. hasn't had any problems at all.. but he eats ALL THE TIME! hahaha.. to get all that he needs.. so, yea.. it's a matter of a really well balanced diet.. I'm not saying that every one who has going veggie/vegan and has problems is not eatting a well blanced diet.. but it's something you really have to look at.. if your having problems.. diet first.. grin.gif

Well, you don't have to graze like cattle all day but be open to trying new things to get the vitamins and minerals you need and balance your diet. According to this article, iron from plant matter isn't stored as long in the body as iron from meat.

QUOTE (The iron balancing act: vegetarians may have the edge)
Many studies show that vegetarians have higher iron intakes than nonvegetarians. However, because iron is absorbed less well from plant foods, vegetarians have smaller iron stores than meat eaters, despite their higher intakes. The average male omnivore has about 1,000 mg of stored iron, enough to supply iron needs for about three years. Women omnivores have about 300 mg, enough to meet iron needs for six months. Iron stores in vegetarians are about 480 mg for men and 160 mg for premenopausal women.


You can read more here smile.gif

This post has been edited by ZDLRfan: Dec 11 2003, 04:49 PM


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Sara
post Dec 11 2003, 05:18 PM
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QUOTE (Aussie1975 @ Dec 12 2003, 12:35 PM)
QUOTE
i dont think it's any less painful for a plant than it is for an animal.


I respect your choice to eat meat Sarah, but do you really believe this?

um is this a rhetorical question? or am i supposed to answer it? unsure.gif


yeah i do believe that plants feel pain, in fact this plants/animals issues has been discussed so many times, and i always have said the same thing. look it up on the search engine, there are few topics, theres one in Hot Seat infact...


i believe every living thing experiences pain, just because we dont hear plants screem, it doesnt mean that they dont feel pain.


if u dont believe they do, then it's perfectly fine, to each their own.


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Aussie1975
post Dec 11 2003, 08:06 PM
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After I posted that, I thought to myself, well Sarah obviously does believe it cause thats what she said - derrr wacko.gif

You mentioned that you believed the pain level was the same for plants as it is for animals and to me, that doesn't really make logical sense. Whilst nobody can say for sure one way or another that plants do or do not feel pain, plants do not have a central nervous system which suggests that they do not have the capacity to feel pain. Certainly I believe that plants have a level of consciousness, but not to the extent of an animal with blood, internal organs, a brain and feelings.

On another issue, even if we were to discover that plants do feel pain we would still cause far less suffering overall by eating them directly, rather than feeding 10 times as many of them to an animal and then killing the animal for its flesh. Just a thought...
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Sara
post Dec 11 2003, 08:15 PM
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QUOTE (Aussie1975 @ Dec 12 2003, 05:06 PM)
On another issue, even if we were to discover that plants do feel pain we would still cause far less suffering overall by eating them directly, rather than feeding 10 times as many of them to an animal and then killing the animal for its flesh. Just a thought...

yeah they dont have a nervous system, butu knwo scientists said the that lobsters dont feel pain, but recently it was discovered they do. also, we all have enternals...even plant... shrimps dont bleed either, do u eat seafood?

speaking of all this seafood, mussles are said to not feel pain, do u eat that? or not coz it's animal? even though it doesnt feel pain?


also, that thing bout feeding the plants to animals,so what do we do? if we assume we eat less plants by eating them directly as opposed to feeding the cows, what do u we do botu the cows? who will feed them? do they lose their purpose since we all decided not to eat them? and when we stop, and stop wasting plants on them, what happens? what will they eat? who will care for them?


just a thought... ermm.gif


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Aussie1975
post Dec 11 2003, 09:43 PM
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No I don't eat seafood - I eat no meat, eggs or dairy and nor do I wear leather. Not all vegetarians go to my extreme, but whatever people can manage is great. It all helps.

I understand what you are saying…if we all stopped eating meat, we would be overrun by animals…but it is obviously not realistic to think that everybody would stop eating meat overnight. Animals for the most part, are bred because of the demand for meat, but if more and more people were to become vegetarian there would be less of a demand for meat and therefore fewer animals would be bred in the first place. Animal numbers would decrease simply because there would be less breeding.
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Metzli
post Dec 11 2003, 10:27 PM
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QUOTE (ZDLRfan @ Dec 11 2003, 03:33 PM)
QUOTE (Rage-Babe @ Dec 11 2003, 07:10 PM)
When I first became a vegetarian i turned Anemic cry.gif that was a few years ago, then I ate meat again.
I'm a vegetarian (again) and I take Iron pills! brows.gif

Do you think that's the result of being a vegetarian or a poorly balanced diet? I have an uncle that's been a vegan for over a decade...he hasn't had any problems yet dunno.gif

I think that some people turn anemic because their body needs to adjust to the new diet...
My sister turned anemic, the doctor told her thet her blood type doesn't do well with deprivation of meat (she's a type-o negative) BUt I don;t know dunno.gif


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Sara
post Dec 12 2003, 07:12 PM
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QUOTE (Aussie1975 @ Dec 12 2003, 06:43 PM)
No I don't eat seafood - I eat no meat, eggs or dairy and nor do I wear leather.  Not all vegetarians go to my extreme, but whatever people can manage is great.  It all helps.


hey!

it all helps what?

what do u think bout ppl living in extreme enviromnmental conditions? who really lack the dark green leaves and do actually need meat to get their protein? (point brought up by Cosmic in another thread, not so long ago), do u think it's still not ok to eat meat?

QUOTE
I understand what you are saying…if we all stopped eating meat, we would be overrun by animals…but it is obviously not realistic to think that everybody would stop eating meat overnight. Animals for the most part, are bred because of the demand for meat, but if more and more people were to become vegetarian there would be less of a demand for meat and therefore fewer animals would be bred in the first place. Animal numbers would decrease simply because there would be less breeding.


well i didnt mean we're gonna be overrun by animals, what i meant was, cows and chicken were domisticated by humans for thousands of years, their genes have been selected for and against by humans, till they reached their modern form today, and they have been for a very very long time there to feed us, if we dont eat them anymore, i really do think that we won't care for them anymore, what do we do these cows? also, it's not just bout us eating them, if we stop eating them, are we gonna stop feeding them plants? what happens then? do we leave them to starve..?!

but u say there will be fewer bread in the first place, u realise it's too late to say "first place" we;ve been eating these animals for so very long...even if we assume that gradually they will decrease, what happens? decrease till they become extinct? is the point u guys are trying to make....? ( i am seriously asking by the way...)


when u say u dont drink milk and eat eggs, why? it doesnt hurt the animal does it? cows lactate all year round...plenty of milk for everyone...


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Aussie1975
post Dec 14 2003, 06:58 PM
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QUOTE
hey!

it all helps what?


As far as I am concerned, if people can eat less or no meat then it will ultimately help reduce the number of animals being killed, keeping in mind that animals are bred for meat.

QUOTE
what do u think bout ppl living in extreme enviromnmental conditions? who really lack the dark green leaves and do actually need meat to get their protein? (point brought up by Cosmic in another thread, not so long ago), do u think it's still not ok to eat meat?


I think that if people are eating meat as a matter of survival then it’s completely different. However, in a situation such as this people would be more likely to kill only what they need, rather than the mass slaughter that exists today.

QUOTE
well i didnt mean we're gonna be overrun by animals, what i meant was, cows and chicken were domisticated by humans for thousands of years, their genes have been selected for and against by humans, till they reached their modern form today, and they have been for a very very long time there to feed us, if we dont eat them anymore, i really do think that we won't care for them anymore, what do we do these cows? also, it's not just bout us eating them, if we stop eating them, are we gonna stop feeding them plants? what happens then? do we leave them to starve..?!


laughing.gif Oh fair enough, didn’t see this one coming. Well, considering that the vast majority of vegetarians and vegans become so for moral reasons I don’t think that caring for animals is going to be an issue. A lot of people care for animals and they don’t expect anything in return i.e. meat. Cows could be good lawnmowers for instance. Are we going to stop feeding them – well, that is just silly. Are we going to let them starve... wacko.gif

QUOTE
but u say there will be fewer bread in the first place, u realise it's too late to say "first place" we;ve been eating these animals for so very long...even if we assume that gradually they will decrease, what happens? decrease till they become extinct? is the point u guys are trying to make....? ( i am seriously asking by the way...)


No Sarah, its not about eradicating cows from the planet (or other animals for that matter). Its about the welfare of the animals – allowing them a natural life and one that is free from fear, and that is simply not possible with the way things are at present.

QUOTE
when u say u dont drink milk and eat eggs, why? it doesnt hurt the animal does it? cows lactate all year round...plenty of milk for everyone...


Definitely plenty of milk for everyone Sarah, but at what cost...Dairy cows have been genetically manipulated to produce large amounts of milk (about 10 times what her calf would have used) – because of this unnatural load of milk, dairy cows will often develop mastitis and/or diseases to the feet which can result in distortion of the legs. In addition to this, the calf is taken from the mother after only a few days post birth, so that the milk can be used for humans. P.S. the calf is usually destined for veal or leather.

Also, do you really think that having milk extracted by those horrible machines would not be painful?

As with cows, hens too have been manipulated to produce the maximum number of eggs possible. And I think we all know of the appalling conditions that the vast majority of hens are still kept. Whilst there are obvious differences between battery hens and free-range hens, in a lot of cases free-range hens are still fed steroids etc and for me, eating eggs supports this.
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Sara
post Dec 14 2003, 08:22 PM
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smile.gif

ur talking bout horrible conditions and cages and all, i'm fully against that...i eat farm bred organic stuff.


caring for these animals, that would be great, i just dont see it happening...like u said, farm animals have been manipulated by artificial selection by humans, this has been going on for 1000s of years...honestly, humans wont care for farm animals if they're not getting anything in return...well i dont think so anyways...

yeah animals should live freely i totally agree, but when we get a huge farm and put cows in it, i dont know, it's good for them, they are being fed and taken care of.


i also dont understand the morals behind not eating animals, but eating plants... especially that eating animals occurse in nature too...but we should leave that, coz here, we obviously agree to disagree laugh.gif


and to me, it's a matter of principle, if i'm ok with ppl living in extreme conditions having to eat meat, then i can eat meat too, even if i have the option to eat something else.

i do agree though that we are wasting so much food...there are so many places around the world with starving children and babies and men and women sad.gif i think resources should be divided roughly equally...but that's a different issue i guess cry.gif


agree to disagree wavenew.gif


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Aussie1975
post Dec 14 2003, 11:28 PM
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yep, agree to disagree smile.gif
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thief of dreams
post Dec 14 2003, 11:49 PM
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end animal cruelty, start sticking needles in politicians.. lets shove drugs and "vitamins" down some senators throat and see if its ok to distribute to the public and at what over inflated price we can do it at...
animal cruelty is a shitty deal, yet it happens. it will continue to happen until everyone gets up and walks outside and does something to stop it...

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Guerrilla
post Dec 20 2003, 04:02 AM
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joemomma86
post Dec 20 2003, 08:33 PM
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man, sometimes i'd just like the human race to suddenly drop dead, it would be best for the earth
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