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> Do The Ends Justify The Means?, deep thought on the question
SweatShopUnionRu...
post Dec 2 2003, 04:54 AM
Post #1


huh?
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I'm sure everyone has heard the expression many times before, but I have been thinking about this more and more lately and it really has me stumped.

I know that there is no simple yes or no answer, that it isn't black or white and actually depends intensely on the situation, but at what point do you draw the line? And if there is a grey space, then how large is it?

I'm going to give an example after I’m done giving my thoughts, and it's the best one I could come up with to illustrate my dilemma, and if you could give your take on the situation it'd be greatly appreciated. But first.... (Warning: long read with ranting)

There are obvious times when this shouldn't be questionable, like World War 2. The allies had to go to war to stop Hitler from murdering systematically (cold and robot like!!!) millions of "unwanteds" in Europe and wherever else he would conquer. Now this does not mean I am glad WW2 happened by any means, though it does interest me, probably more than it should, but for the most part I am a pacifist and believe in Gandhi's ways of social unrest. Also Gandhi believed his methods would work to stop Hitler and his Nazism. However I really don't believe that it would work, he systematically murdered millions of people (6 million Jews I believe as well as 2 million others, and is responsible for 21 million deaths in his time (that’s including war casualties)) and was able to have his own people except death camps and have Polish and other Slavic people turn their Jewish neighbours in for small rewards. So would civil unrest work and would the Germans care about mowing through millions of protestors? Not likely. Therefore the only way to stop him would have been with force and violence. So did the ends justify the war and the deaths of many allied and axis soldiers and civilians? In my mind yes.

Alternatively, is the modern war in Iraq justified? In my mind definitely not (emotions were harshly oppressed to say it so calmly... trust me!). The false disguises of the war such as "searching for weapons of mass destruction" or ""giving the Iraqi people democracy" (or ramming it down their throats as I see it) never threw me off for a second. At the cost of human lives (pretty large numbers too, and on both sides), billions of dollars (which the tax payers paid with in taxes and will pay with the loss of social programmes (Tom Paine covered an article on this, forget its name....), the credibility of the UN (trust me its pretty weak right now and it'll likely crumble like the League of Nations), and the rights of the millions of people, especially in the UK where 80% opposed the war (which doesn't even mean 20% supported it, there’s still the undecided or no opinion category), and they went off regardless, I know I’m missing huge points but anyway on with the point... all for the ends of cheap oil and control in the middle east.

So we can see two different points on the yes/no spectrum of the question (and don't go "Donnie Darko" on the scale idea, I believe this is pretty linear with a grey area). but when can you say that the ends justify the means? when the outcome is better with the actions then when it is without? and I thought the answer would be this easy but actually it isn't. and here's the example:

If there was a mass murderer on the loose, and to catch and stop him you would have to kill (or let die in some way) an innocent man. It is likely that he will murder again, and lets say for the sake of this example before he would be caught it is likely that he would murder at least 2 people. With this situation is it right to send the one man to death to stop more from dieing? in my mind no.... (Think of it from all angles including the "sacrificial victim")

...what do you think?


--------------------
"Like a doberman chompin' on a cat; It's the New World Order, and their bombing on Iraq. And it's so fucking heartless, the whole country's starved, and yet they've been targetted as a threat reguardless."
-Sweatshop Union
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rampage
post Dec 2 2003, 02:01 PM
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I think this topic has been torturing me all day long and I don't think the torture will stop just because I come talk about this complex subject.


So ~ who gets to be the innocent person I would kill? The person who could give me the means to my big old important ends? And who would the murderer be killing if I didn't kill the murderer ? Another murderer?

I don't know? Make the torture stop! wallbash.gif

Help me from my imagination!


wacko.gif

This post has been edited by rampage: Dec 2 2003, 02:02 PM


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"it's always nice to help friends laugh the snot from their nose!"

.. and of course: fucking the heart break brigade until one truely learns to find the antichrist of one's own soul

no ones ever wanted to pay me shit.... oh yea they figure if i'm making money i should tell them all how because if i'm making money anyone should be able to do it... but otherwise if i go to them for opportunities.. they'd prefer i kiss their ass for nothing... or if i'm lucky i get to suck their dick!

these documents have been unsealed until 2069 in order to provide faith in fucking nothing dipshits
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rampage
post Dec 2 2003, 02:22 PM
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No torture with high anxiety!!!!!!! hunter.gif

I'd prefer a more human way to go to the ends of my big old meanie meanie means!

Do I really have to kill someone?

You picked the worst person for this shit you know! I'd chicken out on you so fucking bad! Sure I'd kill in self defense if I was able. But I'd rather kill them just because they killed me really! I want to take their soul to the grave with me!


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"it's always nice to help friends laugh the snot from their nose!"

.. and of course: fucking the heart break brigade until one truely learns to find the antichrist of one's own soul

no ones ever wanted to pay me shit.... oh yea they figure if i'm making money i should tell them all how because if i'm making money anyone should be able to do it... but otherwise if i go to them for opportunities.. they'd prefer i kiss their ass for nothing... or if i'm lucky i get to suck their dick!

these documents have been unsealed until 2069 in order to provide faith in fucking nothing dipshits
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SweatShopUnionRu...
post Dec 2 2003, 02:29 PM
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huh?
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well i did phrase as "let die" in the brackets. so i wasn't actually trying to say you had to kill them its more or less knowly let them die.

but yeah its a tough issue....


--------------------
"Like a doberman chompin' on a cat; It's the New World Order, and their bombing on Iraq. And it's so fucking heartless, the whole country's starved, and yet they've been targetted as a threat reguardless."
-Sweatshop Union
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rampage
post Dec 2 2003, 03:08 PM
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Yea the best take us to the grave with them!

Jesus
Gahndi
MLK
etc!!!


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"it's always nice to help friends laugh the snot from their nose!"

.. and of course: fucking the heart break brigade until one truely learns to find the antichrist of one's own soul

no ones ever wanted to pay me shit.... oh yea they figure if i'm making money i should tell them all how because if i'm making money anyone should be able to do it... but otherwise if i go to them for opportunities.. they'd prefer i kiss their ass for nothing... or if i'm lucky i get to suck their dick!

these documents have been unsealed until 2069 in order to provide faith in fucking nothing dipshits
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Prisoner#72321
post Dec 2 2003, 10:27 PM
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mmmmmm what a great topic to get you thinking!!

Personally I don't think I could let the innocent man die to catch the mass murderer, but I could see how a more ruthless individual could. Then the question is "is this ruthless individual a neccessary evil that protects our well being or is he just a power hungry sadistic killer".

And furthermore if the ruthless individual was prepared to kill the innocent man to catch the mass murderer does he have the right to make that decision in the first place - in my mind no, no-one does.

I think that I have just created more questions rather than answer any!!!


--------------------
"If a man hasn't discovered something he will die for, he isn't fit to live".
"Political power grows out of the barrel of a gun".
"Vocals not to soothe, but to ignite and put in flight my sense of militance".
"Love is the only force capable of transforming an enemy into a friend".
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SweatShopUnionRu...
post Dec 2 2003, 11:19 PM
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hey it may not answer anything, but it brings up a good point... i'm not sure if i could start a war to stop a ruthless army like what many leaders in the past have done, but in some situations it was necessary....

so maybe these people that will dirty themselves to get the job done are needed....

but also should anyone have the right to make that decision? not in my mind either


--------------------
"Like a doberman chompin' on a cat; It's the New World Order, and their bombing on Iraq. And it's so fucking heartless, the whole country's starved, and yet they've been targetted as a threat reguardless."
-Sweatshop Union
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R0bo
post Dec 2 2003, 11:24 PM
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The ends never justifies the means. one mans justifiable means, is anothers outrage. take for example the whole hypathetical about killing one man, to save two. you arent the murderer, the murder takes the lives he takes, for whatever misguided reasons he uses, for you to step in, and alter this mans perception of an altered reality by taking the life of a completly innocent man, not only do you then become an active partner in evil, but you create a completely new scenerio, requiring a means to an end. what ive shwon here is that ends with violent means, only perpetuates more means to an end, and solves nothing.


--------------------
Children molded since birth
Schools teaching the revised
Books printing Sams truth
History shaped in clay
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Radisshu
post Dec 3 2003, 06:01 AM
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soooo, if there was ONE method to making the world a perfect place in three hundred years and YOU could execute it just like that [finger snap], but it WOULD require sacrificing 90% of the earth's current population.. hmmm..


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revolution is impossible if the majority isn't for it. first we need to make them realize.
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SweatShopUnionRu...
post Dec 3 2003, 01:47 PM
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well um, Radisshu, that kinda sounds like what Hitler was trying to do, or atleast make *his* perfect world....

but thats what i mean, when does it become ok? and at what point does killing a man become justifiable? not saying that killing 90% of the world population is for peace, but would 50% be ok? 25%? 10%?


--------------------
"Like a doberman chompin' on a cat; It's the New World Order, and their bombing on Iraq. And it's so fucking heartless, the whole country's starved, and yet they've been targetted as a threat reguardless."
-Sweatshop Union
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BillyVassi
post Dec 6 2003, 01:47 AM
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i've been staggering through this thought for only i know how long..years....early high school

do i fight with everything i have...use violence...and succumb to the opposite of the ideals i have..
or do i walk into the fray..... sit cross legged..knowing many a man before me has fell in that same fashion...

is it the ideal i uphold or do i enforce the reality ?

whether or not any of us likes to acknowledge it, sadly.... the intelligent voice has to speak twice as loud
and the non violent force often is crushed under the weight of technology and brutality in the hands of evil men .

any arguements i would simply point to the history of humanity and walk away from the arguement..

but i wonder when evolution will catch up with the non violent..peaceful ideal..which is of mind and soul over body

but until i learn how to stop bullets with my hands or swirl the waves... with the wash of a hand...I
AND you are bound to human nature..
and that means vioence and suffering and the only thing that makes the cycle bearable is the knowledge many have seen past the reoccuring

and made the choice never to kill no matter the circumstances.


i will die in peace and balance
looking up through watered eyes ..bleeding on the ground..in pain and completely lost ..after being shot or beaten for my ideals
knowing that sacrafice is the harder ..not rising to fire or retaliate..

never...

and im not strong enough a man to live that ideal ,
yet......
but i hope in the memory of anyone i know/knew who has suffered in the name of all things beautiful in the name of love..i will

if not i will ..like so many others...will be nothing but a domesticated ape..wasting air and energy


--------------------
"Id rather be forgotten, Then remembered, for giving in "
Summerholidays V.s. Punkroutine.
the refused
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thief of dreams
post Dec 15 2003, 12:40 AM
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there is one easy way to make the world perfect.. simply eradicate ignorance.. and help me with my spelling.. id apreciate it.. lol

<->T<->O<->D<->


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you are stronger than the fear inside you
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Stigmata
post Dec 15 2003, 06:45 AM
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Be A Light Unto Yourself
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We need to wake up and see out true selves and others. we need to see what is really going on and make a stand, a stand of peace. I have been an angry person in the past but now i see that violence isnt the way. Look at how many peaceful leaders have been before us. Humanity is a lost cause, it always was, it is an opinion. The only was we can "find" humanity is to strip away the layers of lies and moral materialistic thought. orale.gif


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<span style='font-size:14pt;line-height:100%'><span style='color:blue'>Freaks here in this fucking hopeless hole we call L.A.
The only way to fix it is to flush it all away
Any fucking time, Any fucking day
Learn to swim, I'll see you down in Arizona Bay </span></span>
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TinaRATM
post Jan 9 2004, 05:26 PM
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Be the change You wish to see in the world (Ghandi)
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have nothing to say... u guys just said everything... this topic couldn`t be better in the present-days. I`d like to ask it to Mr. President Bush, I`d like that he`d be between us and answer that question...

HOW LONG? NOT LONG! COZ WHAT U REAP, IS WHAT U SOW!!!!


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Oily silence mocks the legless boys
Who travel now in coffins

"Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter". (Luther King Jr.)

"Nearly all men can stand adversity, but if you want to test a man's character, give him power". (Lincoln)



www.myspace.com/tinazinha
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rage baby
post Jan 10 2004, 01:11 PM
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flip this capital eclipse
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hmmm...............what would jesus do?


--------------------
They use the flag to control us
Brainwash us to be their patrotic slaves
Programs our minds by controlling what we learn
The only difference from the nazis is that
Someone tried to stop them
RED WHITE AND BRAINWASHED
RED WHITE AND BRAINWASHED
RED WHITE AND BRAINWASHED
RED WHITE AND BRAINWASHED
The government says they're working for us
Just as long as we increase their pay
But the minute they get into office we're a has-been
A yesterday
RED WHITE AND BRAINWASHED
RED WHITE AND BRAINWASHED
RED WHITE AND BRAINWASHED
RED WHITE AND BRAINWASHED
The red stands for the blood of all the people
We've slain
The white for this racist, bigoted foundation
The blue for your arayan eyes -- all empty
Empty because you're taught to bow down to the man
"Fly that flag, that flag of freedom"
"Do what you can for your country"
Go and fight their wars for them
"They're not following in our footsteps,
KILL THEM!"
RED WHITE AND BRAINWASHED
RED WHITE AND BRAINWASHED
RED WHITE AND BRAINWASHED
RED WHITE AND BRAINWASHED
They call that being a patriot
I just call it ignorant
If you don't fight to make things better
Then you're the one betraying the country
RED WHITE AND BRAINWASHED
RED WHITE AND BRAINWASHED
RED WHITE AND BRAINWASHED
RED WHITE AND BRAINWASHED
RED WHITE AND BRAINWASHED
RED WHITE AND BRAINWASHED
RED WHITE AND BRAINWASHED
RED WHITE AND BRAINWASHED
RED WHITE AND BRAINWASHED
RED WHITE AND BRAINWASHED
~anti-flag
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