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> The Word: 'nigger'.
Mars
post May 14 2005, 10:10 PM
Post #451


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Actually, one could say ANY arguments/debates over racism etc can be "personal." Sure, I'll admit it: I personally CANNOT STAND RACISM!

But a couple thoughts:
QUOTE
I'm going to say that the use of the term 'nigga' in hip-hop started as a concerted attempt to claim the word and change its meaning and application. I don't know if people still use it as such---nor do I know if it's been effective. I think it's too soon to tell if it has been effective.


Hip hop merely REFLECTS this particular viewpoint (as opposed to creating it.) There have been Black folks calling themselves that for decades, partially for the reason you and Yabasta (eons ago) cite: they feel it will diminish the effectiveness of the original word as an insult. All my uncles etc do it. But I hate it. Some of us feel that to call onesself that reflects our own self-hatred.

In the hip hop scene, there's also a 'line' out there of women saying they aren't offended by men calling women b****es and wh***es, because "I'm not one, so they ain't talking about me!" Unfortunately, yes, they are. If you call someone a name specific to the person's behavior or action you dislike, that is about you and them only. But when you name-call by bringing in their racial identity or gender or sexual orientation etc, you are now insulting them for being part of that group. Otherwise, their race/gender wouldn't have come up in the argument.

I agree with Rotten Berry that changing language can have a huge impact. The problem is, change which way and for what impact?


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yabasta
post May 15 2005, 12:55 AM
Post #452


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Mars as always you make a good point and i want to speak on this topic again despite it probably damaging my chances of becomming president.

I have actually thought about this a lot more recently than i used to before. I will be honest here and you can hate me for being honest if you wish. When i was a teenager (long long time ago...i can still remember how that music....hahha) i got into hip hop. I liked the sound of it and i liked the idea of making music without traditional instruments. I guess i was your typical white hip hop fan trying to copy that culture as much as i could(i was a young teen so i didn`t do too well). I didn`t ever talk differently i just enjoyed De La Soul etc. Time went on and i listened to some hip hop that mentioned being black and what that meant etc. I understood i was not black and i understood these were not problems i had to deal with but i empathised. I had an indian friend who was not black but of course he understood and related to the racism lyrics more. One day he asked me why rappers kept using the word nigger and i tried to explain to him what i thought their reasons were although at the time i mostly listened to upbeat hip hop and was not really listening to much hard stuff where the word was used. I saw that he wasupset by the word being used(more upset that black people were using it i guess). When i saw Boyz in The Hood it was the first time i had seen a black guy use it as an insult and i saw and do see a difference. Having said that and stated what i feel before i should also add some other points.

I never personally use the word nigger or nigga really. I am using it in this thread because we are talking about the word. I don`t think the word itself is the problem. I do not agree with racism and racism makes me ashamed to be white sometimes in the same way that sexism makes me ashamed to be male. Again if somebody is a bitch i will say they are a bitch even if they are male(i don`t see bitch as a gender word, sorry).

I listen to a lot of hip hop and a lot of rappers use the word. I don`t generally sing a long and i feel kind of uncool when at shows anyway especially hip hop shows because from what i have seen(not a lot) hip hop shows are much more about joining in. So the point about ethnicity at RATM shows works the other way too. White kids see RATM as a white band and if you go to the music forum you see a lot of white metal fans come to this site and probably are the majority of fans at many shows. Of course in Mexico there fans are mostly mexican so a white kid could go there and be the odd one out. It is not always about the band it migh tbe the venue too.

My points might be disagreed with or ignored or seen as pointless but i am saying that racism exists and i hate racism as much as i hate xenophobia and homophobia and sexism and discrimination against people who think differently or dress differently. As Razzy once sang "i hate hate".

I hope nobody here thinks i am racist. I hope i am not racist. I have not said what i wanted to so i doubt it made any impact.

sorry if i offended anybody.



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Lostphoenix
post May 15 2005, 02:10 AM
Post #453


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thank you for clarifying mars....

i can see what you meant now...yes, if a whole group is hostile towards you, you're not gonna want to go there, somewhat it was strange to me that ratm fans would be as dumb not to be welcoming to anybody who differs from the average metal fan who is predominantly white.

my experience is more to do with xenophobia and work is kinda group experience, yes there always were people who would be xenophobes in both positve and negative sense

positive - making fuss of me, making me feel 'special', not understanding that them trying to be ever so nice about the fact i'm foreigner made them xenophobes too....in worse way, dishonest way...i'd rather be called a bitch to my face then behind my back put it that way. or it kills me when they try to speak very slowly and very clearly......hallo ..... my english may not be gramatically perfect...but i've been here 12 years, i've been learning the language since age of 13.... can you not find out how i speak first before talking to me like as if im here two minutes? you're making me feel like an idiot hallo! does it mean when you meet a foreigner that they don't speak english? - whole blinking europe speaks english by now as second language.

negative- that one is obvious, no need to explain...

but the fact is, not all people there were like that...a lot of them would even slap those out of order into order for me, as they hated seeing them treating me like that.

i've never met a whole group of xenophobes, thanks god...so i really hope that ratm concert were not packed by racists. from that point i get you now.
while i treat my friend as equal and said the colour is not an issue, i didn't mean that i would not care if somebody was nasty to him, because i do and you'd have to hold me not to slap that person in order...or i'd be pissed off if he was not made welcomed just on bases of his colour, if i were to go somewhere with him and i'd be accepted and he not, i'd not stand for that. the colour is not in issue i meant is whatever colour he'd be or i'd be, he's my friend and i love him as such. we've been there for each other in pretty shitty times, what he means to me, is who he is, nothing else matters or would stop me from friendship with him. its not that i'm not aware/respect of the fact that being black is part of the package of who he is, with zack's message, i'd be suprised if people stood and watched if people were nasty to you or were hostile to you or made you feel like 'get the hell out of here, this is our patch'.
*slaping metaphorically speaking*

i can also see what you mean by racial blindness, i agree with that, a lot of white peole can be/are ignorant in that way. i think then the means of raising awareness are of great importance.
because of my country location and it being cut off from the world in communistic era, i can recall when my town encountered first blacks the whole street went quiet and everybody just stared....those guys were somalis dutch, they're expression kinda read, what the hell's going on? i think because the air was not of hostility but of bewilderment, they kinda weren't getting ready for being attacked or something..but for sure they must have been uncomfortable.this kinda ignorance leads to racist comments like my mom came out with, when we were staying over at my friends who lives in a town where the airport she had early flight from, she uttered this complete stupid judgement based upon what my friend had around ( a lot of music and books) you know she basically wondered that my friend is black and cultured....i nearly bashed her. i'd need to investigate if her racism comes from ignorance or some nasty place. the racism out of ignorance i think can be dealt with by raising awareness, racism out of nastyness, is harder to eradicate and both suck for sure.

This post has been edited by Lostphoenix: May 15 2005, 02:14 AM


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Grimer 54
post May 15 2005, 04:34 AM
Post #454


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Good thing this thread is an easygoing observation on a term that is omni-present in our culture. I mean, if we had let tempers flare and people started yelling, this thread could get hard to read, and really hurt some people's feelings.

...Oh Shit.

I think we need to base ourselves a little bit. Everyone's jumpy over a legit touchy subject... We're never going to understand anyone's point of view, if we're ready to leap down their throat if we disagree with their opinion. Open forum, public venue, it's only progressive if you're listening, rather then just formulating your response. Listen to the other dude, rather then passing judgement arbitrarily.

Shaka bra, Hang loose. There are no klansmen here, no lynching crews. Just because someone has a different view on the word, doesn't make them racist... If you disagree, state it, but no need to convict the guy on the other side of the screen. You're not exactly getting the full measure of someone's character over the interweb.

So don't take this discussion of a serious subject too seriously. That's not what this board is for, it's not for stress, it's for sharing opinions, learning, and perhaps entertainment. If someone really pisses you off, you're better just ignoring them; The people here aren't really part of your life, and not worth the deep emotion seemingly afforded. I mean, I love you all, you're all my fellow humans, and some of you really seem cool, but, you're internet people, and it'd be foolish to invest in any of you as a friend.

So, I think it would best serve everyone to realize that, and readjust their set, so we can get back to thoughtful debate, rather then spewing venom-laced gobs of text over an internet forum. I've gotten to that point, too, I know it's hard, but you just got to realize, that it's not worth escalating to this. Because it's all cons, no pros for anyone. And why participate in something that's wholly negative?

...Yeah.

This post has been edited by Grimer 54: May 15 2005, 04:34 AM


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This is the FiFTY-FOUR effect: (the loveable nemesis)
QUOTE(Grimer 54)
Society begets government. Anarchist theory is actually just a pseudo-intellectual state of denial, an idealistic illusion that can never be more than a wholly unfulfilled dream. Thus, it is a counter-productive measure that actually weakens, rather than improves the progress of society as government is inevitable in the maintenance of civilization. Therefore, it is infinitely more effective to pursue political upheaval through the system, rather then against the system. For despite all of its flaws, both Democracy and Capitalism are still rooted within the people themselves by rational and realistic means. That is not to say I advocate the status quo, but instead, a moral pursuit to right the endless wrongs brought on by the evils of human nature, via an unintimidated, undaunted, unmitigated spirit of liberty and justice for all, rather then the destructive hypocrisy of your so-called "revolution."

"I may disagree with what you have to say, but I will defend, to the death, your right to say it".
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