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> Israel's Birth 1948
ImperialAerosolK...
post May 15 2005, 12:20 PM
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what have we learned from this history lesson?


Jews are terrorists


they are capable of genocide


but have you ever seen a decent bagel made elsewhere?
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Lostphoenix
post May 15 2005, 12:27 PM
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IAK theres badstuff about druids , everything has a dark sides to it for sure. i'm not denying that, neither im fully fanatical pagan for that either and pretend its better or worse then anything else. this world is one of duality and each of us has better and darker side, so all that we do reflects that and so do our religion...if you point out that in the past druids made human sacrifice, you can do so...if it is a historical fact, then it is so...one has to face the wrong, not try to deny or avoid it. i for one am not even practising any form of paganism in its true sense and neither i'd kill a human being or an animal, except insect...i'm guilty of that one.

metzli, i agree defiance posted as if he looks down at people, but i disagree that he is neutral.... he would not have reacted to nistha the way he did.
he is not neutral when it comes to putting a blame on europians for being anti semitic and pro nazi, while some where, its ignorant to say that. there were many europians AND POLES too who had helped the jews, opposed the injustices and pogroms and holocaust, how can anybody say they study history and spit on resistance like that and call other people ignorant, gullible and the only one who searched the whole issue while justifying their exodus from europe solely by painting the europians as genocidal racists while also completely ignoring the dark sides of the jews. no side is ever innocent. to think so is having romantic notions based on books but not life.

am i neutral if i say all americans are racist agaisnt arabs and are pro'bush and pro arab war?


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ImperialAerosolK...
post May 15 2005, 12:29 PM
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^if i thought dru-ism(to borrow some fredtax) was real religion i would have finished that post
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Metzli
post May 15 2005, 12:43 PM
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I think the time for celebration will be when there's the birth of a Palestinian State.


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ImperialAerosolK...
post May 15 2005, 12:45 PM
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w00t.gif w00t.gif w00t.gif w00t.gif


going to the hot seat because i dont want to moderate myself anymore!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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ImperialAerosolK...
post May 15 2005, 01:02 PM
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i dont see Che supporters sub texting their arguments with homosexual concentration camps
i dont see a Ramadan thread apologizing for 9 11


i wanted to celebrate the birth of israel without pre-dignification from a bunch of really anti-semitic little shits.


so clearly thank you for all of this.

it reminds me i can't be jewish here anymore


so clearly


not in yiddish










thank you
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Metzli
post May 15 2005, 01:20 PM
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relax!

You can celebrate whatever you want to! But you of all people should know how this forum is, and yes, you better believe that there are many Pro-Palestine people here and we are gonna be critical of this. The whole birth of Israel isn't even recognized by many people I know. And all the people that I've worked with In Students For Justice in Palestine, of course they're already pro-palestine, however, nonetheless, they are affected by everything goin on because their families have been victims of Israeli inflicted violence and racism. So tell me, how can you post this without expecting what the reactions are?


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ImperialAerosolK...
post May 15 2005, 02:52 PM
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just another relaxed jew boy...


aint sayin a word
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defiance
post May 15 2005, 03:05 PM
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I still get the feelign soem of you aren't fully grasping my point. Or else I am just not being clear enough. Anyway sorry if it seems like I am talking down to everyone, because I really am not trying to. I responded to Nishtha because I wasn't sure if he was tryign to respond to me particularly or not, considering that except for IAK, I'm the only one in this thread who is not 100% pro-Palestinian. I will try to word my posts a little differently since apparently some people think I am being arrogant and are offended. But this thing about me "getting this from a book" is total bullshit, to put it very lightly in fact. Anyone who is familiar with me on this board would know that my beliefs are completely based on my own observations and feelings and opinions. If you mean I got my information from a book, then yeah, so does anyone who knows anything about this kind of subject. Where else would you get it from? But I don't just have one source if that's what you mean. Now...

First of all, I understand very well that many Europeans helped the Jews durign and before the Holocaust, and of course we all know afterwards. I pointed out that fact the Poles not to discredit all Poles or anythign like that, just to point out that is very possibly where that guy was getting his mentality from. Sometimes people will only say certain parts of the story because that is what's relevant at the moment. I try to get everything in, but what happens is that my posts end up being too long, like my last few on here.

I never claimed at all that one side was so perfect or innocent. In fact my point all along has been the exact opposite -- that both sides have been cruel and unjust. At the moment I, just like all of you, tend to sympathize more with the Palestinians because at the moment they are the ones suffering more -- or as you put it Lostphoenix, "getting wiped out treatment." But the point I have been trying to make is that to just say "Israel = Zionism = imperialism + racism" is a very simplistic view of it. A lot of you keep on making it that Zionism is the political belief that says that Jews alone own all Palestine, because it their holy land, and no one else has any right to it. You are right that is one very prominent branch of Zionism, but it is not Zionism itself. I already have pointed out that the main leaders of the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising were Marxist-Zionists, and since Marxists advocate equality for everyone and tend to be secular, if not total atheists, it seems logical to guess they obviously were not in the same club as the peopel now running the show in the Israeli government. In fact there was even a group that said to honor the Warsaw Ghetto fighters by getting rid of the West Bank wall and withdrawing from the Palestinian territories. And I also mentioned that there was a branch of Zionists that wanted a shared state, so they obviously also were nto the same either. In fatc Noam Chomsky was oen for awhile, but he became very dissillusioned with the way thigns were going and ended up renouncing his Zionism. At least that's what got from an article he wrote about it. But yeah, that's all I am sayign about Zionism.

Now my point about looking at the history to understand the present situation, is that there are reasons, which obviously, as you said Lostphoenix, does not justify their mistreatment of others, it is very useful for us to loow at that and realize that if this problem is to be solved, all the very real concerns of different groups must be taken into account, and a good all-aroudn solution in the long-term be found. At the present the best step for soem kidn of peace is for the Israelis to get out of Gaza and West Bank, tear down that horrible wall, and stop persecuting Palestinians. At the same time, the Palestinian fightign organizations, in particular Hamas and similar groups, must stop attacking Israeli posts, and no matter what the situation is, they, like the Israelis, have to stop attacking non-combatant civilians. Then once Palestinian self-government has been recognized, I believe the best path to a permanent peace, and for Palestinians to be able to re-enter all of their homeland, without having to kill or drive out all the Israelis, is for a dual-headed, shared state, in which both sides have equal rights and representation, regardless of the differences in population size. Both flags can site side-by-side, and therefore both peoples will be independent, yet both sides will be sharing the land. That is a long way off, since right now we're still at step one, which is ending the Israeli aggression and the fightign between both sides. But the leaders and politicians don't even seem to be considering that idea.

Now does that seem so bad of an opinion? You guys think I am anti-Palestinian or something, but I am not. In fact I think what I am proposing has much more hope for them, because then they can live anywhere in Palestine and have all of their rights and be equally represented. At the same time, it doesn't live the Israelis feeling bitter and angry like they've lost everythign and all their dreams have been crushed. It also solves the question of what to do about Jerusalem, since religious tradition has made both sides determined to have it.

As for the point about Judaism not being so perfect, I am not saying it is. I didn't know there were scriptures liek the opens you just brought up in the Talmud, and if that is true then I agree that that is not very good. But I'd like to mention that the Koran has plenty of similar exhortations to it's followers to "kill infidels," and so on. Islam is not so perfect either. So what's the point I'm saying? Am I saying that Muslims are evil or bloodthirsty or violent terrorists or anything like that? NO! I am just saying that Islam is not exactly peaceloving either, since you have taken the time to point out the faults in Judaism.

So yes, again I say, I see both sides. Maybe you do too, I don't know. But my assesment seems to take them in consideration more. And Metzli herself said "I understand both sides, but I only relate to one." I guess you are trying to say that you can't relate Israelis murderign Palestinians, but you can relate to Palestinians murdering Israelis? Sorry to end on a more hostile note, but I've been in probably four or five different debates about this before, and only once did the person I was debating with actually respond to my statements instead of the media's. Everbody else has just been putting up there own arguments from the media so that they could tear them apart, and they never had to bother payign attention to my own actual statements. I believe Dataika calls that a strawman fallacy, yet ironically he also did the same thign for awhile. So hopefully you guys will now respond to me, instead of your self-made version of me.
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defiance
post May 15 2005, 03:17 PM
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Oh and also, Lostphoenix, what you have said about the Gypsies, is very true I totally agree. I think they are one of the forgotten but still oppressed and somehow mazingly patient peoples of the world. They never get popular attention like Jews, Kurds, or in this case, Palestinians, because they aren't recognized as beign a true nation, they are still seen by many people as dishonest, withcraft-practising nomads and anti-socialites, and they, despite the bad attention and mistreatment, remain patient and have never launched big uprisings or guerrilla movements, or anything like that, so no one pays attention to them. It's very tragic, and I also have tremendous respect and admiration for them, just as you do.

And what you said about not just going back to some ancient homeland and throwing the natives, I also agree with that and said that in my previous posts, when I responded to your claim about ancient Isreal only existing in the Bible. The difference is that Jews, like Gypsies, have been aliens everywhere they go up until the migration to Palestine. That said, I still say that I strongly believe the Palestinians have every right to live there and have their own government. But I have just taken the time say that I think Jews should also be allowed to live there as a nation, but instead of the two-state deal, which has onyl caused problems, I think the country should be shared by dual state. Does that seem wrong to you?

Imperial Aerosol Kid, though I have been arguing the side of Jews and Israel this hwole time, I have to say, if you actually think that Metzli and Lostphoenix are being anti-Semitic, I think you are mistaken. Do you think that Arabs and Muslims are sick and inferior, or violent and bloodthirsty? I really don't think so, regardless of whether you criticize certain pracises and beliefs and if you believe Israel has a right to exist in Palestine. The same is true of them. They are nto racist, they are simply outraged by what they percieve (with just reason) to be military aggression and persecution of the Palestinian people by the state of Israel. I think they are makign some mistakes in their conclusions, but I think they have a lot truth in their statements and I don't believe that they are in any way anti-Semitic or anti-Jewish.

This post has been edited by defiance: May 15 2005, 03:22 PM
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Metzli
post May 15 2005, 03:32 PM
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QUOTE(defiance @ May 15 2005, 04:05 PM)
I And Metzli herself said "I understand both sides, but I only relate to one." I guess you are trying to say that you can't relate Israelis murderign Palestinians, but you can relate to Palestinians murdering Israelis? [right][snapback]173567[/snapback][/right]


Palestinians defending themselves from the aggresors and oppressors. Sorry, I'm not a pacifist, but fuck! Would you just sit there while someone is attacking and killing your families and taking up your indigenous land?? I don't think so. So naturally, one will resort to violence, if violence is provoked. Need I say that Israelis are not innocent, and nor are the Palestenians, but maybe your views about this are too outsider. You're right, I can sympathize more with Palestinians, because my people have been treated in similar ways. You're seeing this with a very critical eye, but you fail to see if from a personal stance. I'm not saying that I know what it feels like to personally live in an occupied territory, but fuck! One example, have you seen how the U.S. Mexican border has been? Especially this past month in Arizona with the minutemen?? (I don't mean to go off topic) The point is, I see it a different way than you do Defiance, yeah sure, youre a smart guy and you know how to argue, but this isn't an argument that's gonna get solved by the end of the day. All we can do in this thread and talk and talk about it, and that's not very proactive now is it? So what I mean when I say I can relate to them, clearly, like I stated before, my peoples history has had a long history of being colonized through religious imperialism, as well as genocide. I recognize that it happened a long time ago and it's not like we can detach the land that once belonged to my ancestors, but that is possible in Palestine today. Not saying that the Israelis can't be there. But it sure ass hell wont work out with all the current tension. The solution to this problem is not a Solution. A shared state seems like a quick fix solution, but you know what... It's hard to figure out how to fix this situation. What I do know is that, the occupation needs to end. The violence needs to end, and if the violence ended, then so would the resistance to it. They really do need peace, but they need JUSTICE first, because without it, there can be no peace. I don't agree with the killing of anyone, but like I said, I'm not a pacifist, and I don't believe that there will be a peaceful revolution here, but there will be a revolution.


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Metzli
post May 15 2005, 03:42 PM
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QUOTE(defiance @ May 15 2005, 04:17 PM)
They are not racist, they are simply outraged by what they percieve (with just reason) to be military aggression and persecution of the Palestinian people by the state of Israel.
I think they are makign some mistakes in their conclusions, but I think they have a lot truth in their statements and I don't believe that they are in any way anti-Semitic or anti-Jewish.
[right][snapback]173571[/snapback][/right]


So you're saying you think there are "mistakes in our conclusions" that just makes you seem as though there is only ONE solution to the situation, which then leads us to believe that everytime people disagree with you, that they are just flat out wrong, which also leads us to believe that you are Always right. hmmm... that's something to think about Defiance. You can have your own well thought out opinion, but you have to consider that others can too. And they can be right too.. instead of mistaken. It does sound arrogant tho. Just point out a few things...

This post has been edited by Metzli: May 15 2005, 03:43 PM


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defiance
post May 15 2005, 03:43 PM
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That was (honestly) a very powerful post, but unfortunately it had absolutely no relevence to what I said. So if you're intention is to respodn to me, go back and read everything I said, instead of just one little paragraph. Then I'll reply to your statements.

I totally understand why they are fighting back. But when I said murdering Israelis, I meant murdering un-armed, non-combatant civilians. That's not self-defense, that's murder. There is a big difference. I'm not sayign all the Palestinian resistance fighters are doign thta, but a lot of them are, and it doesn't help their cause, nor is it a justified means of resisting either. I can totally see armed resistance, but that's not what I consider blowing up peaceful civilians to be. So again, please respodn to my actual post, if you itnend to respodn at all:

QUOTE
I still get the feelign soem of you aren't fully grasping my point. Or else I am just not being clear enough. Anyway sorry if it seems like I am talking down to everyone, because I really am not trying to. I responded to Nishtha because I wasn't sure if he was tryign to respond to me particularly or not, considering that except for IAK, I'm the only one in this thread who is not 100% pro-Palestinian. I will try to word my posts a little differently since apparently some people think I am being arrogant and are offended. But this thing about me "getting this from a book" is total bullshit, to put it very lightly in fact. Anyone who is familiar with me on this board would know that my beliefs are completely based on my own observations and feelings and opinions. If you mean I got my information from a book, then yeah, so does anyone who knows anything about this kind of subject. Where else would you get it from? But I don't just have one source if that's what you mean. Now...

First of all, I understand very well that many Europeans helped the Jews durign and before the Holocaust, and of course we all know afterwards. I pointed out that fact the Poles not to discredit all Poles or anythign like that, just to point out that is very possibly where that guy was getting his mentality from. Sometimes people will only say certain parts of the story because that is what's relevant at the moment. I try to get everything in, but what happens is that my posts end up being too long, like my last few on here.

I never claimed at all that one side was so perfect or innocent. In fact my point all along has been the exact opposite -- that both sides have been cruel and unjust. At the moment I, just like all of you, tend to sympathize more with the Palestinians because at the moment they are the ones suffering more -- or as you put it Lostphoenix, "getting wiped out treatment." But the point I have been trying to make is that to just say "Israel = Zionism = imperialism + racism" is a very simplistic view of it. A lot of you keep on making it that Zionism is the political belief that says that Jews alone own all Palestine, because it their holy land, and no one else has any right to it. You are right that is one very prominent branch of Zionism, but it is not Zionism itself. I already have pointed out that the main leaders of the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising were Marxist-Zionists, and since Marxists advocate equality for everyone and tend to be secular, if not total atheists, it seems logical to guess they obviously were not in the same club as the peopel now running the show in the Israeli government. In fact there was even a group that said to honor the Warsaw Ghetto fighters by getting rid of the West Bank wall and withdrawing from the Palestinian territories. And I also mentioned that there was a branch of Zionists that wanted a shared state, so they obviously also were nto the same either. In fatc Noam Chomsky was oen for awhile, but he became very dissillusioned with the way thigns were going and ended up renouncing his Zionism. At least that's what got from an article he wrote about it. But yeah, that's all I am sayign about Zionism.

Now my point about looking at the history to understand the present situation, is that there are reasons, which obviously, as you said Lostphoenix, does not justify their mistreatment of others, it is very useful for us to loow at that and realize that if this problem is to be solved, all the very real concerns of different groups must be taken into account, and a good all-aroudn solution in the long-term be found. At the present the best step for soem kidn of peace is for the Israelis to get out of Gaza and West Bank, tear down that horrible wall, and stop persecuting Palestinians. At the same time, the Palestinian fightign organizations, in particular Hamas and similar groups, must stop attacking Israeli posts, and no matter what the situation is, they, like the Israelis, have to stop attacking non-combatant civilians. Then once Palestinian self-government has been recognized, I believe the best path to a permanent peace, and for Palestinians to be able to re-enter all of their homeland, without having to kill or drive out all the Israelis, is for a dual-headed, shared state, in which both sides have equal rights and representation, regardless of the differences in population size. Both flags can site side-by-side, and therefore both peoples will be independent, yet both sides will be sharing the land. That is a long way off, since right now we're still at step one, which is ending the Israeli aggression and the fightign between both sides. But the leaders and politicians don't even seem to be considering that idea.

Now does that seem so bad of an opinion? You guys think I am anti-Palestinian or something, but I am not. In fact I think what I am proposing has much more hope for them, because then they can live anywhere in Palestine and have all of their rights and be equally represented. At the same time, it doesn't live the Israelis feeling bitter and angry like they've lost everythign and all their dreams have been crushed. It also solves the question of what to do about Jerusalem, since religious tradition has made both sides determined to have it.

As for the point about Judaism not being so perfect, I am not saying it is. I didn't know there were scriptures liek the opens you just brought up in the Talmud, and if that is true then I agree that that is not very good. But I'd like to mention that the Koran has plenty of similar exhortations to it's followers to "kill infidels," and so on. Islam is not so perfect either. So what's the point I'm saying? Am I saying that Muslims are evil or bloodthirsty or violent terrorists or anything like that? NO! I am just saying that Islam is not exactly peaceloving either, since you have taken the time to point out the faults in Judaism.

So yes, again I say, I see both sides. Maybe you do too, I don't know. But my assesment seems to take them in consideration more. And Metzli herself said "I understand both sides, but I only relate to one." I guess you are trying to say that you can't relate Israelis murderign Palestinians, but you can relate to Palestinians murdering Israelis? Sorry to end on a more hostile note, but I've been in probably four or five different debates about this before, and only once did the person I was debating with actually respond to my statements instead of the media's. Everbody else has just been putting up there own arguments from the media so that they could tear them apart, and they never had to bother payign attention to my own actual statements. I believe Dataika calls that a strawman fallacy, yet ironically he also did the same thign for awhile. So hopefully you guys will now respond to me, instead of your self-made version of me.


QUOTE
Oh and also, Lostphoenix, what you have said about the Gypsies, is very true I totally agree. I think they are one of the forgotten but still oppressed and somehow mazingly patient peoples of the world. They never get popular attention like Jews, Kurds, or in this case, Palestinians, because they aren't recognized as beign a true nation, they are still seen by many people as dishonest, withcraft-practising nomads and anti-socialites, and they, despite the bad attention and mistreatment, remain patient and have never launched big uprisings or guerrilla movements, or anything like that, so no one pays attention to them. It's very tragic, and I also have tremendous respect and admiration for them, just as you do.

And what you said about not just going back to some ancient homeland and throwing the natives, I also agree with that and said that in my previous posts, when I responded to your claim about ancient Isreal only existing in the Bible. The difference is that Jews, like Gypsies, have been aliens everywhere they go up until the migration to Palestine. That said, I still say that I strongly believe the Palestinians have every right to live there and have their own government. But I have just taken the time say that I think Jews should also be allowed to live there as a nation, but instead of the two-state deal, which has onyl caused problems, I think the country should be shared by dual state. Does that seem wrong to you?

Imperial Aerosol Kid, though I have been arguing the side of Jews and Israel this hwole time, I have to say, if you actually think that Metzli and Lostphoenix are being anti-Semitic, I think you are mistaken. Do you think that Arabs and Muslims are sick and inferior, or violent and bloodthirsty? I really don't think so, regardless of whether you criticize certain pracises and beliefs and if you believe Israel has a right to exist in Palestine. The same is true of them. They are nto racist, they are simply outraged by what they percieve (with just reason) to be military aggression and persecution of the Palestinian people by the state of Israel. I think they are makign some mistakes in their conclusions, but I think they have a lot truth in their statements and I don't believe that they are in any way anti-Semitic or anti-Jewish.
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Metzli
post May 15 2005, 03:50 PM
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Defiance,

I only intended on answering to one specific point in your post. I did read all of it, but I only felt the need to respond to one aspect of it. So sorry if my post had no "relevance" to your post.. because in all, you are the only relevant person here. Because your opinion is the only right one. (joking aside) I intentionally only answered to that specific part.


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defiance
post May 15 2005, 04:25 PM
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That's fien if you want to respond to one point, but what you responded to was not a point I ever made. I fully understand the reasons for armed resistance, if it is self-defense. But what I was refering to was bombing of Israeli civilians.

I will emphasize this again, so you get the point. I sympathize with the Palestinians, I believe they have every right to live anywhere in Palestine, because it is their homeland, I am against the occupation, against the repression, against the persecution of the Palestinian people. But dividing the country in two will only keep the Palestinians in a situation in which they still have lost much of their homeland, and they will continue to want it back. And if your solution is to kill all the Israelis who live in Palestine and refuse to leave and go into exile again, then I have no sympathy for your stance. The Israelis have legitimate reasons for wantign to live there, but not at the cost of Palestinians homes. Thus the only real solution is a shared state, in which both people are independent and equally represented with their own government, and both people have the same rights as people, but the land is shared by both. It's not a quick-fix, in fact it will be a logn time I think before it will happen, which is why the first priority is to end the occupation, end the repression, and tear down the seperation wall, so that Palestinian rights and self-government can be restored. Then the possibility for a shared state would be a viable option to discuss.

If I'm gettign that from a book, I'd like to know which one, cause I don't know of any major ones that hve proposed that. I know Noam Chomsky did at one time, but he's usually consider an ally of the pro-Palestinians. So if that's who I'm getting it from then I don't see what you'r problem is.
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