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> Israel's Birth 1948
ImperialAerosolK...
post May 14 2005, 12:56 AM
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Declaration_o...State_of_Israel




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This post has been edited by ImperialAerosolKid: May 14 2005, 01:01 AM
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Casbah
post May 14 2005, 11:17 AM
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^That used to be a whole village.

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Lostphoenix
post May 14 2005, 11:26 AM
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that picture of the soldier pointing his weapon at the kids, is disturbing to say the least.


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Metzli
post May 14 2005, 11:34 AM
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zionism, imperialism, ocupation and genocide at its worst.

This post has been edited by Metzli: May 14 2005, 11:35 AM


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Casbah
post May 14 2005, 11:41 AM
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The whole thing is disturbing, and it has total and complete backing by the American military industrial complex.

An Israeli soldier can walk into a Mosque and point his rifle at people praying but imagine what would happen if a palestinian security guard walked into a Synogogue and did the same?



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Fred
post May 14 2005, 01:10 PM
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there was a israilly railly in berlin the other day all these old wemen waving israilly flags but its sort of unpc to critics jews in berlin even these days.

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Casbah
post May 14 2005, 01:33 PM
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^I'm not criticising the Jewish faith as a whole, I'm criticising the ethics of Zionism, and not all Jews are Zionists.


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Fred
post May 14 2005, 03:09 PM
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i think its a doggy area being prud of jewism and then flying the israilly flag.

israil is a country one with a bad recored. in germany cristing israil is like cristing jews so its still a no go area

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Metzli
post May 14 2005, 06:35 PM
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you said you were an english teacher? huh.gif


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defiance
post May 14 2005, 07:23 PM
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I think you guys are forgetting that not all Zionists advocate those policies. You are confusing Zionism as a whole (which is simply the movement by Jews to return to their ancient homeland in Palestine) with the specific, right-wing branch of Zionism that dominates the Israeli government. There are many Zionists who are against the occupation, against the wall, and against the military repression going on. To me what you guys do is no different then people who group all Palestinian nationalists into the category of suicide bombers and terrorist who murder Israeli civilians. I think that is just as sick, but I also know that that is only certain factions of the Palestinian nationalist movement. The same is true with Zionism.

There was even a group that protested against the West Bank wall, that said to honor the Zionist militants of the Warsaw Ghetto by getting rid of the West Bank wall. The Warsaw Ghetto fighters were also Zionists, as well Marxists, and I guarantee you that if the main leaders of the uprising like Mordechai Anielewicz were alive today and in Israel, they would most likely be opposed to these policies.

There was a branch of Zionists in the early days who advocated a shared Arab-Jewish state, in which both groups could have their rights and be respesented equally (in fact Noam Chomsky was one of these). Unfortunately this idea was unpopular both among Jewish and Palestinian nationalists, and in the end was etxremism that prevailed and predominated the policies of both the Arab states and Israel. Since Israel couldn't have defeated the combined Arab attacks on it's own, it appealed to the powerful coutnries for help, and the United States responded. As a result the combination of fear and debt to (not to mention behind-the-scenes manipulation by) the United States has allowed the extremist Israeli factions to maintain predominance, while anger over the creation and then expansion of Israel did the same for Palestinians. Plus the long history of sufferign of the Jewish people and feeling liek they were despised and not wanted by anyone, finally backfired and caused many of them to feel like they didn't oiwe anything to anyone and they should just look out for themselves, rather than worrying about Palestinian Arabs, who they thought of as being just the same as everybody else, because they didn't want them there. So you can see both sides of the story. That's how I feel about it anyway.
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defiance
post May 14 2005, 07:46 PM
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Metzli
post May 14 2005, 07:52 PM
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QUOTE(defiance)
I think you guys are forgetting that not all Zionists advocate those policies. You are confusing Zionism as a whole (which is simply the movement by Jews to return to their ancient homeland in Palestine)

Then why is "Palestine" NOT recognized as a state, and called Isreal??


QUOTE(defiance)
with the specific, right-wing branch of Zionism that dominates the Israeli government.


Uhh, that is what a modern day Zionist is. It's not like they're willing to compromise the land to the indigenous peoples.. the palestinians.
QUOTE(defiance)
There are many Zionists who are against the occupation, against the wall, and against the military repression going on.


uhh, true, but they are still not willing to compromise the land which they strongly believe is their homeland, and as the migration to Isreal would leave them be of persecution, but now they are acting as the persecutors.
QUOTE(defiance)
To me what you guys do is no different then people who group all Palestinian nationalists into the category of suicide bombers and terrorist who murder Israeli civilians.


What would you do if your native land was under occupation and you couldn't do shit, that's the only way out sometimes... Martyrdom...
QUOTE(defiance)
I think that is just as sick, but I also know that that is only certain factions of the Palestinian nationalist movement. The same is true with Zionism.


Once again, a colonized community is not a happy community, nor a pacifist community... and especially NOT a passive one.

QUOTE(defiance)
There was even a group that protested against the West Bank wall, that said to honor the Zionist militants of the Warsaw Ghetto by getting rid of the West Bank wall. The Warsaw Ghetto fighters were also Zionists, as well Marxists, and I guarantee you that if the main leaders of the uprising like Mordechai Anielewicz were alive today and in Israel, they would most likely be opposed to these policies.


How is a Zionist a marxist without being an Imperialist??
Maybe you're right about past leaders ideals and them being against their current foreign policy, but, what good are those Ideals... if they're no longer being practiced? As well as, what good is the beginnings of zionism.. which is just another form of religious imperialism.

QUOTE(defiance)
There was a branch of Zionists in the early days who advocated a shared Arab-Jewish state, in which both groups could have their rights and be respesented equally (in fact Noam Chomsky was one of these).

Sure, in an Ideal world, that would be the 'solution' to live side by side and happy.. but unfortunately, it's to rough out there. How would the Palestinians react to their neighbor that has been long oppressing them?? Not happy, I would say.

QUOTE(defiance)
Unfortunately this idea was unpopular both among Jewish and Palestinian nationalists, and in the end was etxremism that prevailed and predominated the policies of both the Arab states and Israel. Since Israel couldn't have defeated the combined Arab attacks on it's own, it appealed to the powerful coutnries for help, and the United States responded.

Does that make the US Heroes??
Hell no!

QUOTE(defiance)
As a result the combination of fear and debt to (not to mention behind-the-scenes manipulation by) the United States has allowed the extremist Israeli factions to maintain predominance, while anger over the creation and then expansion of Israel did the same for Palestinians.

So, should the violence against the violent be condoned by either sides??

QUOTE(defiance)
Plus the long history of sufferign of the Jewish people and feeling liek they were despised and not wanted by anyone, finally backfired and caused many of them to feel like they didn't oiwe anything to anyone and they should just look out for themselves, rather than worrying about Palestinian Arabs, who they thought of as being just the same as everybody else, because they didn't want them there. So you can see both sides of the story. That's how I feel about it anyway.


I understand that you're attempting to be critical of the situation, as well as not really having a set side that you root for, it's all good and dandy, but I can say that after all the research and learning about this conflict made me realize that there are several parallels between Palestinian people and Indigenous peoples of the Americas. Think of this comparisson, the Americas were colonized, brutalized and they claimed they had the "divine right" to the land. Thus, though the means of imperialism and genocide, out comes this. Now, with 'Isreal', the East European immigrants came over to the land to escape persecution, but at the same time, they are taking over someone elses indigenous land, and implementing a state that is Internationally recognized, not only that but also highly funded by the U.S. Wow, look at the similarities. Not only that, but look at where our money goes, it goes to support the Nuclear Weapons program of Isreal as well as both other wars. That's just sick. As for the Israelis not caring about the Palestinians, well, doesn't look like much has changed since. So that's how I've analized this. I can see both sides, but I can only relate to one.

This post has been edited by Metzli: May 14 2005, 07:55 PM


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defiance
post May 14 2005, 09:04 PM
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First of all, I think you misunderstood my statements as being more pro-Israel when I am not. I am completely against the occupation, the wall, the repression, the anti-Arab policies of Israel. At the same time, I will also say I think your view is one that only makes the problem much worse.

It's very easy to forget about history and only look at the present. After all, what else is there for us to deal with? But when you forget about the history behind these kind of situations, you end up not really udnerstanding the present. Jews were persecuted, forced into ghettos and concentrations camps, forced to emigrate, murdered and beaten in pograms, and in general hated by the European people for centuries before the Holocaust. As a result, because they were never wlecomed and always persecuted by these people, as well as because of deeply rooted Jewish tradition and common dreams, they continued to look to their old homeland in Palestine. So it was as a natural and totally predictable and understandable result of this fact that the official Zionist movement was founded. During late 19th and early 20th centuries, Zionist Jews migrated in small groups to Palestine (where a small Jewish community had in fact remained over the centuries, ever since the exile of the Jews into Europe and the Middle East) where they formed communes on land that they bought. During the 1920s and '30s this movement grew, and then durign the Holocaust, with the extreme persecution and then attempted extermination of the Jews by the Nazis, Zionism became an immediate necessity, the only possible long-term solution that most Jews in Europe could think of to escape the death and misery they faced in Europe.

At the same time, for all the years that Jews dreamed of someday returning to Palestine, Arabs had taken their place and lived there as the natives for centuries. Thus they naturally and understandably felt that the Jewish migration was a threat to their rights on the land, so they opposed the migration at all points and opposed the growing Jewish presence in Palestine. The mutual animosity that resulted grew into violence, in the form of gangs, mobs, and eventually guerrilla warfare and terrorism by pro-Zionist as well as pro-Palestinian organizations. So the movement for a shared state had little popularity on either side. Thus when Israel was officialy created, it was as a purely Jewish state, with Palestinians excluded and the country split into two seperate states. In response, the neighboring Arab states and the Palestinian nations allied and declared war with the intention of eliminating Israel and either annihilating or completely driving out all the Jews who had migrated there. I consider this to have been overly extremist and violent. Perhaps one could understand the feeling that the Jewish migration had to be stopped, but to me that is not onyl not the solution, but in fact it is itself much worse in its aims then the migration.

I can fully relate to the Jews migrating to Palestine. You compare them with the American settlers. But the Jews have a real, historical background in Palestine, and in Europe they were beign gradually exterminated and always persecuted and driven from one home to another, isolated from the rest of society. Niether of these was the case with the European settlers who migrated to America. And furthermore, the Indians, beign peacefully inclined and freindly, happily welcomed the first colonists and settlers for a peaceful coexistence, but were betrayed by the Europeans. On the other hand, the Palestinians violently opposed the Jewish immigrants, because they felt the land only belonged to Arabs and Muslims. Especially Israel. So the situation was very different.

The attack against new-born Israel forced the Israel to look to outside aid in order to survive the onslaught, so they appealed to the United States for aid. The United States, seekign a strong foothold in the Middle East, and wanting to improve its image for the rest of the world so they could seem like they were still the good heroes (which they clearly were not), gave Israel weapons and equipment that allowed them to repel the Arab alliance and then to invade and annex large portiosn of the land designated to Palestien under the British-UN charter. Thus began the conflict that continues until today.

Now I don't know if you had the patience to read all that, but if so I will tell you, that is not in any way the simplistic story that you seem to give it. Both sides had very understandable reasons for their sides, and ultimately both sides committed gross acts of violence and injustice in their effort to achieve their goals. That is the nature of nationalist conflict throughout history. It is the same type of mentality that can potentially trigger colficts like the endless wars in the Balkans (Serbia, Bosnia, Albania). Add to that a deeply-embedded religious zeal among both Jews and Arabs, and you have the makings of a ruthless war between the two sides. That is how fanatics like Sharon (and his even more fanatical former allies), and groups like Hamas, are able to reach prominence while peace advocates are assassinated, repressed, silenced, or simply ignored. That has been the case on both sides. To me in the end, as long as the question beign posed remains that of which state gets what land and which cities, the conflict can not be solved. Only by instituting a shared, dual-headed state in which Israelis can remain in Palestine, but Palestinians will not only be allowed to keep the land they have, but to have more rights and be able to own more land that have been previously stripped away from them, will the conflict ever be solved. Maybe this view is too distant, or too unrealistic, but at least I can hope for peace and justice, while you just decide to accept one evil as inevitable because you are outraged by another evil. Your view is what makes this war continue and grow worse, while mine is the only thing that has ever restrained it.
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ImperialAerosolK...
post May 14 2005, 09:06 PM
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so much for any pride i may have had
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lovely angst
post May 14 2005, 09:50 PM
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Of course there are two sides to the situtation, there usually always are. As a Palestinian living in America, i deffinatly see more than i would like of the "other side". You speak about Zionism just wanting to return Jews to their homeland, excellent go for it. But it is not justifiable in ANY WAY SHAPE OR FORM. Nothing about religious impearlism is justifiable.

Go for it, move the Jews into their "homeland", but first make sure every single Palestinian has a home, and not some shack in shanty town on the Gaza Strip.


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