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> Hussites Uprising/czech History/religious Radicals
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Lostphoenix
Jun 22 2005, 01:15 PM
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15th century (Hussite Movement)
The Hussite movement (1402 – 1485) was a national, as well as a religious, manifestation. As a religious reform movement, it represented a challenge to papal authority and an assertion of national autonomy in ecclesiastical affairs. As a Czech national movement, it acquired anti-imperial and anti-German implications and thus can be considered a manifestation of a long-term Czech-German conflict. The Hussite movement is also viewed by many Czechs as a precursor to the (worldwide) Protestant reformation.

Hussitism began during the long reign of Wenceslas IV (1378-1419), a period of papal schism and concomitant anarchy in the Holy Roman Empire, and was precipitated by a controversy at Charles University. In 1403 Jan Hus became rector of the university. A reformist preacher, Hus espoused the antipapal and antihierarchical teachings of John Wyclif of England, often referred to as the "Morning Star of the Reformation." Hussitism--as Hus's teaching became known--was distinguished by its rejection of the wealth, corruption, and hierarchical tendencies of the Roman Catholic Church. It advocated the Wycliffite doctrine of clerical purity and poverty and insisted on communion under both kinds, bread and wine, for the laity. (The Roman Catholic Church reserved the cup--wine--for the clergy.) The more moderate followers of Hus, the Utraquists, took their name from the Latin sub utraque specie, meaning "under each kind." A more radical sect soon formed--the Taborite sect. The Taborites, who took their name from the city of Tábor, their stronghold in southern Bohemia, rejected church doctrine and upheld the Bible as the sole authority in all matters of belief.

Soon after Hus assumed office, German professors of theology demanded the condemnation of Wyclif's writings. Hus protested and received the support of the Czech element at the university. Having only one vote in policy decisions against three for the Germans, the Czechs were outvoted, and the orthodox position was maintained. In subsequent years the Czechs demanded a revision of the university charter, granting more adequate representation to the native, i.e., Czech, faculty.

The university controversy was intensified by the vacillating position of the Bohemian king Wenceslas. His insistence at first on favoring Germans in appointments to councillor and other administrative positions had aroused the national sentiments of the Czech nobility and rallied them to Hus's defense. The German faculties had the support of Archbishop Zbynek of Prague and the German clergy. Wenceslas, for political reasons, switched his support from the Germans to Hus and allied with the reformers. On January 18, 1409, Wenceslas issued the Kutna Hora Decree: the Czechs would have three votes; the foreigners, a single vote. Germans were expelled from administrative positions at the university, and Czechs were appointed. In consequence, Germans left Charles University en masse.

Hus's victory was short lived, however. He preached against the sale of indulgences, which lost him the support of the king, who received a percentage of the sales. In 1412 Hus and his followers were suspended from the university and expelled from Prague. For two years the reformers served as itinerant preachers throughout Bohemia. In 1414 Hus was summoned to the Council of Constance to defend his views. The council condemned him as a heretic and burned him at the stake in 1415.

Hus's death sparked decades of religious warfare, the Hussite Wars. Sigismund, the pro-papal king of Hungary and successor to the Bohemian throne after the death of Wenceslas in 1419, failed repeatedly in attempts to gain control of the kingdom despite aid by Hungarian and German armies. Riots broke out in Prague. Led by a Czech yeoman, Jan Zizka, the Taborites streamed into the capital. Religious strife pervaded the entire kingdom and was particularly intense in the German-dominated towns. Czech burghers turned against the Roman Catholic Germans; many were massacred, and most survivors fled to the Holy Roman Empire. In the countryside Zizka's armies stormed monasteries, churches, and villages, expelling the Catholic clergy and expropriating ecclesiastical lands.

During the struggle against Sigismund, Taborite armies penetrated into Slovakia as well. Czech refugees from the religious wars in Czechia settled there, and from 1438 to 1453 a Czech noble, Jan Jiskra of Brandys, controlled most of southern Slovakia from the centers of Zvolen and Kosice. Thus Hussite doctrines and the Czech Bible were disseminated among the Slovaks, providing the basis for a future link between the Czechs and their Slovak neighbors.

When Sigismund died in 1437, the Bohemian estates elected Albert of Austria as his successor. Albert died, however, and his son, Ladislaus the Posthumous--so called because he was born after his father's death--was acknowledged as king. During Ladislaus's minority, Bohemia was ruled by a regency composed of moderate reform nobles who were Utraquists. Internal dissension among the Czechs provided the primary challenge to the regency. A part of the Czech nobility remained Catholic and loyal to the pope. A Utraquist delegation to the Council of Basel in 1433 had negotiated a seeming reconciliation with the Catholic Church. The Council's Compact of Basel accepted the basic tenets of Hussitism expressed in the Four Articles of Prague: communion under both kinds; free preaching of the Gospels; expropriation of church land; and exposure and punishment of public sinners. The pope, however, rejected the compact, thus preventing the reconciliation of Czech Catholics with the Utraquists.

George of Podebrady, later to become the "national" king of Bohemia, emerged as leader of the Utraquist regency. George installed a Utraquist, John of Rokycan, as archbishop of Prague and succeeded in uniting the more radical Taborites with the Czech Reformed Church. The Catholic party was driven out of Prague. Ladislaus died of the plague in 1457, and in 1458 the Bohemian estates elected George of Podebrady king of Bohemia. The pope, however, refused to recognize the election. Czech Catholic nobles, joined in the League of Zelena Hora, continued to challenge the authority of George of Podebrady until his death in 1471.



just thought i'd throw this in here for maybe some discussion or something


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insurrection
Jun 22 2005, 06:49 PM
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I have some questions...

QUOTE(Lostphoenix @ Jun 22 2005, 05:15 PM)
...
Hussitism began during the long reign of Wenceslas IV (1378-1419), a period of papal schism and concomitant anarchy in the Holy Roman Empire
...[right][snapback]179495[/snapback][/right]


I suppose they are probably talking about anarchy as in chaos, rather than any political ideology...the Roman Empire (or any empire) is quite un-anarchistic.

QUOTE(Lostphoenix @ Jun 22 2005, 05:15 PM)
...
Soon after Hus assumed office, German professors of theology demanded the condemnation of Wyclif's writings. Hus protested and received the support of the Czech element at the university. Having only one vote in policy decisions against three for the Germans, the Czechs were outvoted, and the orthodox position was maintained. In subsequent years the Czechs demanded a revision of the university charter, granting more adequate representation to the native, i.e., Czech, faculty.
...[right][snapback]179495[/snapback][/right]


I'm surprised that the Czechs had only one vote (compared to the Germans' 3) in their native country... why was this the case?

QUOTE(Lostphoenix @ Jun 22 2005, 05:15 PM)
...
Hus's victory was short lived, however. He preached against the sale of indulgences, which lost him the support of the king, who received a percentage of the sales. In 1412 Hus and his followers were suspended from the university and expelled from Prague. For two years the reformers served as itinerant preachers throughout Bohemia. In 1414 Hus was summoned to the Council of Constance to defend his views. The council condemned him as a heretic and burned him at the stake in 1415.
...
[right][snapback]179495[/snapback][/right]


False prophets...

QUOTE(Lostphoenix @ Jun 22 2005, 05:15 PM)
...
In the countryside Zizka's armies stormed monasteries, churches, and villages, expelling the Catholic clergy and expropriating ecclesiastical lands.
...
[right][snapback]179495[/snapback][/right]


So Zizka was a Protestant then...?

QUOTE(Lostphoenix @ Jun 22 2005, 05:15 PM)
...
A Utraquist delegation to the Council of Basel in 1433 had negotiated a seeming reconciliation with the Catholic Church.
...
[right][snapback]179495[/snapback][/right]


What is Utraquism/who were the Utraquists?

QUOTE(Lostphoenix @ Jun 22 2005, 05:15 PM)
...
The Council's Compact of Basel accepted the basic tenets of Hussitism expressed in the Four Articles of Prague: communion under both kinds; free preaching of the Gospels; expropriation of church land; and exposure and punishment of public sinners. The pope, however, rejected the compact, thus preventing the reconciliation of Czech Catholics with the Utraquists.
...
[right][snapback]179495[/snapback][/right]


What does the last one mean... "exposure and punishment of public sinners"?


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defiance
Jun 22 2005, 09:49 PM
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I've read some about this before, it's very interestign stuff. I'll read the article soon but I don't have time at the moment. When I do I'll post more. Just a quick blip though, not much to do with the main subject, but kind of interesting.

The reason I've heard of it before is because I read a little about it in the encyclopedia while I was looking up military history. I forget which group it was, but there were two main groups of Hussites durign the Hussite rebellion, and one of their leaders (in fact I think it was Zizka, but I'm not sure) was a military genious. Basically what he's remembered for in military history is for creating a primitive precursor to the modern tank. They would basically put a cannon inside of a wagon and use it as mobile artillery. They would also build these little wagon fortresses for defense. The tactics worked extremely well, especially in defeating the mounted cavalry, which were generally considered the best military force at the time.
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Lostphoenix
Jun 23 2005, 05:38 AM
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QUOTE(Lostphoenix @ Jun 22 2005, 05:15 PM)
...
Hussitism began during the long reign of Wenceslas IV (1378-1419), a period of papal schism and concomitant anarchy in the Holy Roman Empire
...[right][snapback]179495[/snapback][/right]


I suppose they are probably talking about anarchy as in chaos, rather than any political ideology...the Roman Empire (or any empire) is quite un-anarchistic.

i share the same opinion, i think they used it here in the 'chaos' definition here as the straggle for power by the empire's rulers and the church must have left vacuum and chaotic conditions for the ordinary folk.

QUOTE(Lostphoenix @ Jun 22 2005, 05:15 PM)
...
Soon after Hus assumed office, German professors of theology demanded the condemnation of Wyclif's writings. Hus protested and received the support of the Czech element at the university. Having only one vote in policy decisions against three for the Germans, the Czechs were outvoted, and the orthodox position was maintained. In subsequent years the Czechs demanded a revision of the university charter, granting more adequate representation to the native, i.e., Czech, faculty.
...[right][snapback]179495[/snapback][/right]


I'm surprised that the Czechs had only one vote (compared to the Germans' 3) in their native country... why was this the case?

here's why from earlier history:
The thirteenth century was also a period of large-scale German immigration, often encouraged by Premyslid kings hoping to weaken the influence of their own Czech nobility. The Germans populated towns and mining districts on the Bohemian periphery and in some cases formed German colonies in the interior of the Czech lands. Stribro, Kutná Hora, Nemecky Brod (present-day Havlíčkuv Brod) and Jihlava were important German settlements. The Germans brought their own code of law--the jus teutonicum- -which formed the basis of the later commercial law of Bohemia and Moravia. Marriages between Germans and Czech nobles soon became commonplace.
the conflicting relationship between czechs and germans culminated in second world war as the germans wanted to claim the land they were co-inhabiting with czechs while still keeping strong german culture within czech and holding considerate political power there since that centrury....write over of 'suddetten land' (where i accidentaly come from, its northeast czech borders with polland and germany), the quarell today remains as after the second world war they were sent back to germany (where they funded towns that are german name sakes of towns in my neck of the woods) with bitterness; apparently upon their leaving they screamed at the czechs that they will come back and finish killing us (slavs were on hitler's list with jews and gypsies), obviously czechs were bitter about the war and way majority of germans - not saying all germans- viewed as as inferior.

QUOTE(Lostphoenix @ Jun 22 2005, 05:15 PM)
...
Hus's victory was short lived, however. He preached against the sale of indulgences, which lost him the support of the king, who received a percentage of the sales. In 1412 Hus and his followers were suspended from the university and expelled from Prague. For two years the reformers served as itinerant preachers throughout Bohemia. In 1414 Hus was summoned to the Council of Constance to defend his views. The council condemned him as a heretic and burned him at the stake in 1415.
...
[right][snapback]179495[/snapback][/right]


False prophets...
i know you meant it at the church burning hus as heretic, not at jan hus and i agree,.

QUOTE(Lostphoenix @ Jun 22 2005, 05:15 PM)
...
In the countryside Zizka's armies stormed monasteries, churches, and villages, expelling the Catholic clergy and expropriating ecclesiastical lands.
...
[right][snapback]179495[/snapback][/right]


So Zizka was a Protestant then...?

well, he could have been classed that, but what they formed and it is so in czech till today they formed so called Church of United Czech Brotherhood - my grandmother was under this church. they are still very open, i looked at their 'program' they had a lot of lectures on alternative stuff ...like past lives, healing, holotropic breathing and w00t.gif stuff like that.


QUOTE(Lostphoenix @ Jun 22 2005, 05:15 PM)
...
A Utraquist delegation to the Council of Basel in 1433 had negotiated a seeming reconciliation with the Catholic Church.
...
[right][snapback]179495[/snapback][/right]


What is Utraquism/who were the Utraquists?


The more moderate followers of Hus, the Utraquists, took their name from the Latin sub utraque specie, meaning "under each kind." A more radical sect soon formed--the Taborite sect. The Taborites, who took their name from the city of Tábor, their stronghold in southern Bohemia, rejected church doctrine and upheld the Bible as the sole authority in all matters of beliefo streams of hussites, taborites and ultraquists,

its like a difference between anarchists and libertarian socialists who are not anarchists.....i know more about taborites...they were as the church's name treating each other as brothers and sisters, it was one of those radical religios people who treated women as equal in century that only had women declared as having a soul (untill then the church classed them as soul-less lesser human beings) similiarly as cathars in france on whom i have posted a topic in this section too, after i finish this post and attach it here, so you can have a look at them too if you have missed that, and they were antihierarchy, so their camps were not of hiararchical power structure, but the opposite of that. they are still considered by the czechs as very brave czechs in our history and they hold our national pride, jan hus's burning date is commemorated it as a national day of improtance and there are many monuments to jan zizka around the country...
taborites were also more laymen and ordinary people, while ultraquists were from czech nobility and the more moneyed czechs who took Jan Hus teachings and the cause as theirs too.(probably why they were 'moderate')


and to answer defiance here as well....
yes, jan zizka (he had one eye by the way as curiosity) was a military genious and the battles won were thanks to that and the people....after he died they had started loosing.


[quote=Lostphoenix,Jun 22 2005, 05:15 PM]...
The Council's Compact of Basel accepted the basic tenets of Hussitism expressed in the Four Articles of Prague: communion under both kinds; free preaching of the Gospels; expropriation of church land; and exposure and punishment of public sinners. The pope, however, rejected the compact, thus preventing the reconciliation of Czech Catholics with the Utraquists.
...



What does the last one mean... "exposure and punishment of public sinners"?

[right][snapback]179557[/snapback][/right]



i imagine if you reflect that to todays situation its exposure and punishment of Geoge bush and his posse..... basically if you betray your people for power lust or whatever reason by some deed, you will be punished for that crime against brotherhood of the people =community= the public, little bit like what dataika was once saying about if somebody steals from community..... its how i'd understand it from their way of life, but i'd come back on that what it is in exact terms.



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Lostphoenix
Jun 23 2005, 06:15 AM
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i haven't found a good article on this as a lot of is by modern christians, but what that fraze means is what i just said, in plato's teaching it concernes criminals, in bible, the sinner, its basically bringing the transgretion of somebody out into the public arena and seeking solution for that, bible urges to do so with justice and humility....you can say our judicial system is public exposure and punishment of the sinners


here's about john wycliffe in short who inspired Jan Hus
John Wycliffe lived almost 200 years before the Reformation, but his beliefs and teachings closely match those of Luther, Calvin and other Reformers. As a man ahead of his time, historians have called Wycliffe the "Morning star of the Reformation."

Born in the 1300s, Wycliffe criticized abuses and false teachings in the Church. In 1382 he translated an English Bible--the first European translation done in over 1,000 years. The Lollards, itinerant preachers he sent throughout England, inspired a spiritual revolution.

But the Lollardy movement was short-lived. The Church expelled Wycliffe from his teaching position at Oxford, and 44 years after he died, the Pope ordered his bones exhumed and burned. Intense persecution stamped out his followers and teachings. It would be hundreds of years before men like Martin Luther resurrected the reforms of which Wycliffe dreamed.









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Lostphoenix
Jun 23 2005, 07:13 AM
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http://www.zdlr.net/board/index.php?showto...1534&hl=cathars


here's the link to the cathars

and also more wide link for john wycliffe

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Wycliffe



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Lostphoenix
Jun 23 2005, 10:34 AM
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more info here
http://www.factmonster.com/ce6/people/A0853465.html


about jan zizka, jan hus and the hussite's


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defiance
Jun 23 2005, 09:35 PM
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Okay, I read the whole essay. Very interesting, and good subject to bring up. You said you wanted soem discussion on it, so I guess I'll make a few comments.

Now I've read a little about this before, and I remember that there were two main factions of the Hussite rebels. They might be the Utraquists and Taborites that are mentioned in the article, cause Taborite sounds like one of them.

From what I read before, one of the factions was more radical (that woud be the Taborites I guess), and what caught my attention about them was that they were actually sort of communist. They had a system where all the members of the community gave their property to a communal "stock" (I think that's the word that was used), or collective, and this worked like a community bank for everyone. I thought that was interesting. Do you know anythign about that?

Edit: I just read the article about Jan Zizka too, and yeah, that's the guy I was thinking of, it mentioned his armored wagon tactics. I've always been fascinated by military history, and especially strategy. Strange since I'm very anti-war, but I've just always liked reading about it. So I think it's interesting anyway.

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Lostphoenix
Jun 24 2005, 04:50 AM
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[quote=defiance,Jun 24 2005, 05:35 AM]
Okay, I read the whole essay. Very interesting, and good subject to bring up. You said you wanted soem discussion on it, so I guess I'll make a few comments.

yeah, i think interesting parts of history are not just good to read about but to discuss as our cultures are also a product of history, so the history is still present within our present times. also from what the society then tried to achieve we can learn how to achieve what we want with more insight i guess

Now I've read a little about this before, and I remember that there were two main factions of the Hussite rebels. They might be the Utraquists and Taborites that are mentioned in the article, cause Taborite sounds like one of them.

yeah, thats what those fractions were and the taborites were more radical, although zizka was with them, he found them later too radical though for his own believes, but nevertheless they still worked at their cause together on political and warfare level, but that was him and taborites, taborites were not as unified with ultraquists in politics and adherence to hus's teachings, but on the battle field they united and fought together.

From what I read before, one of the factions was more radical (that woud be the Taborites I guess)- yes again, and what caught my attention about them was that they were actually sort of communist. They had a system where all the members of the community gave their property to a communal "stock" (I think that's the word that was used), or collective, and this worked like a community bank for everyone. I thought that was interesting. Do you know anythign about that?

well, they were also against hierarchy, they had leaders such as zizka and other commanders on battlefields, where i guess you do need some unified command and i believe that even in warfare they were more 'equal' in power structure then it is so in mercenary armies or armies of the rules who fight for his profits and political gain. but out of battle field their power structure was non hierarchy style...so i guess they would be more sort of anarcho-communists. they did share their property as you said..considering also fact that taborites were laymen and ordinary folks were solidarity was already more commonfolk then amongs the 'moneyed' people ( i guess the more you have, the less you wanna give it up dunno.gif ) they called each other brother and sister and they had a really cool battle song.....i hate national songs for what they stand for, but that one really gives you chills on your spine, maybe i like it also because it also really depicts the melancholism of slavs in a music tone lol....but the words of it are the chilling factor. i can't put my finger on why but they do.

Edit: I just read the article about Jan Zizka too, and yeah, that's the guy I was thinking of, it mentioned his armored wagon tactics. I've always been fascinated by military history, and especially strategy. Strange since I'm very anti-war, but I've just always liked reading about it. So I think it's interesting anyway.

... know your enemy, maybe that's why your interested even though you're so anti war..... i mean anarchists are not keen on goverment, but for example noam chomsky is well interested to know what govs is up to as many others...lol



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defiance
Jun 25 2005, 01:53 PM
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Is there somewhere I can hear that song? I would like to hear it, and also read the lyrics (translated to English of course).

That's really cool how they were so egalitarian. I guess it shows that religion can be a force for good. Kind of like liberation theology today. And also it shows that people working together as equals can still be very well-organized and effective. It's really just a question of ingenuity and perseverence, not so much having some kind of command structure.

QUOTE(Lostphoenix @ Jun 24 2005, 07:50 AM)
... know your enemy, maybe that's why your interested even though you're so anti war..... i mean anarchists are not keen on goverment, but for example noam chomsky is well interested to know what govs is up to as many others...lol
[right][snapback]179771[/snapback][/right]

Well I don't think it's really that. In fact I became interested in military history and strategy long before I had even become very political at all. I saw the movie Gettysburg when I was eight years old, and that got me interested in the Civil War, and from that military history and then history in general. It was as I was reading history that I became more political, from readign about slavery, the American Indians, and other things. I actually read a little bit about the Hussites a few years ago in my encyclopedia, which I think I already mentioned, and the way I found it was by reading about military history. But even now I always have a tendency to just naturally feel a lot of respect for great military geniuses and fighters, and I always have to make myself remember the more important factor of what they were fighting for and what they were doing in the process. I mean even the Nazis had some great generals, like Rommel, the "Desert Fox." I just have to always differentiate between skill or bravery, and fighting for a good cause.
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Lostphoenix
Jun 25 2005, 02:04 PM
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yeah, i'll get those lyrics translated, i'll find a way how to get that song and send it to you.

That's really cool how they were so egalitarian. I guess it shows that religion can be a force for good. Kind of like liberation theology today. And also it shows that people working together as equals can still be very well-organized and effective. It's really just a question of ingenuity and perseverence, not so much having some kind of command structure.


well, i think if people have a motivation they can move mountains, if together they can move the earth. i think people are much happier if they are treated as equals and work better in unity.


well, its great to hear somebody to know an obscure fact about my country like over the other side of the world. i thank your interest for that.






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